The Doctrine of Additional Prophets

The day of the Lord will come quicklyTo My Long-Time Friends and Associates

We have a lot in common. We have spent years worshiping together and providing service in the church. We have served in Bishoprics, on High Councils, in High Priest groups, as teachers in the Primary and in a multitude of other callings over the years. We have taught seminary and Sunday school together. We have been missionaries and have sung together in the choir. It has been forty years since my first calling as a teacher at age seventeen. Know this: I love you and love my association with good people like you.

I understand the orthodox, standard and correlated doctrines of the church. I have studied and taught them all my life. From my earliest days in Sunday school, Primary, Seminary, religion classes at BYU-I, institute classes, adult Sunday school, including years teaching the doctrines and history of this church, I have loved every minute of it. I have tried to develop gifts of the spirit in teaching and preaching. Some of my most spiritual experiences have been in prayer, while preparing lessons to be taught on Sundays.

A Rich Tradition of Conserving the Past

I recognize most leaders and members of the LDS church are conservative by nature. We hold dear the traditions of our church and our nation. We love the ceremonies of remembering, partaking of the sacrament, participating in home and visiting teaching, striving to find our ancestors through research in family history and taking the names of our ancestors to the temple to perform ordinances of salvation. This is right and good. I am also conservative by nature. I cherish our long history and rich traditions.

I can’t tell you how much I love singing the songs of Zion in Sacrament, Sunday school and priesthood meetings with you. I’ve enjoyed my time on the Stake High Council, in Bishopric meetings, ward council and PEC meetings. My association with you has blessed my life and caused me to reflect many times on the happy state of those who are righteous, of those who strive to live after the manner of happiness. I see the result living the gospel has brought to your lives and have tried to emulate your good examples.

We Are Each A Little Different

I’m sure you have recognized I am a little different in that I am quiet, introverted and somewhat shy. I learned to immerse myself in books and studying the gospel from the time I was seventeen. I have spent over forty years studying the doctrines of this church, trying to understand what we really believe and what we are supposed to accomplish with our lives. For the most part we are agreed. I have been able to “put questions up on the shelf” as we have been taught to do, while waiting patiently for answers.

Because I know I am responsible for my own salvation, I have sought those answers diligently. Over the past few years I have come to see things a little differently. I have come to view certain passages of scripture with a different interpretation than what we have been taught all our lives in the standard curriculum of the church. I know this is bothersome to some of my long-time friends. I know you are concerned about me. You have told me so. I appreciate your kind expressions of love and concern.

I Love the Lord, I Love His Church

Please know I am not seeking to disassociate myself from this church and certainly not from our long friendships. I have no desire to create doubt or confusion. I do not wish to be blamed for influencing your children to turn from their membership in this church we love and have loved for so long. I am a Mormon and intend to remain a Mormon as long as this church will allow me to stay. Because I love the Lord, and believe in the principle of personal revelation so strongly, I intend to do as He directs me.

The Lord has directed me in the scriptures and in my personal prayers to places I had never imagined I would go. I have always thought of myself as a true-blue, died-in-the-wool Mormon, believing all I had been taught about our history and how we should view certain events in that history. You may ask why our history is so important. It is critical to our understanding of what this church has to offer and what the Lord is doing with His church. Note I still refer to the Church as the Lord’s. I do not doubt that fact.

I Sustain the Authorities of This Church

I have repeatedly stated I sustain the local and general authorities of the Church. I continue to reaffirm that commitment. I sustain these men as prophets, seers and revelators as we have done by common consent since the days of Joseph Smith. Although I do not understand the principle of keys as well as I would like, I have always and will continue to affirm the living prophet, Thomas S. Monson, as a prophet of God, the only man who is authorized to exercise all the keys of the priesthood as I understand them.

The big difference, and what has changed in my life over the past few years, is my belief in additional prophets of the Lord, outside the hierarchy of the LDS Church. For this I have been chastised, warned and pleaded with to be careful, to turn from this erroneous belief and to keep my beliefs to myself. In a desire to be honest and give my local priesthood leaders full opportunity to determine my worthiness to continue serving in my current stake calling, I turned in my temple recommend a month or two ago.

Response to Turning In My Temple Recommend

I was surprised at the reaction. You would think I had done the worst thing any member of this church could do. Especially astonishing were the responses of former associates in stake leadership positions – in a previous stake – whose words caused me to feel I had turned my back on all I hold precious and true in my life. Nothing could be further from the truth. I have done nothing of the sort. I am loyal to a fault. I have no desire to do or say anything to cause others to doubt their testimonies of the restored gospel.

I know I am not the first to go through this experience, but perhaps I am the first to make such a public issue of the matter by explaining and describing the process on my blog. I am striving to honor direction from my local leaders to not share details of our meetings, and believe I have kept that promise. The funny thing about my declaration and my actions is that it is so in line with what we find in the Book of Mormon, I can only surmise people have not read or do not accept the Book of Mormon on this matter.

Multiple Prophets Currently Lead Our Church

We currently have fifteen men we sustain as prophets, seers and revelators. Every General conference and at least in one Stake Conference per year, I raise my hand with you in sustaining them in this calling. Many of you know my sister is the secretary to one of those apostles. I am grateful to have met Elder Perry both in his office in the Church Administration Building and here in my home ward a few years ago. I find him to be a delightful man, worthy of the position he holds, filled with the light of the Lord.

The Scriptures teach the Lord reveals His will and directs His children through prophets. I fully accept this doctrine. If we study the scriptures closely, especially the Book of Mormon, we will note the Lord does not limit Himself to prophets within the prevailing institutional hierarchy. In other words, it is more common for the Lord to send prophets from outside the leadership of the day than it is from within that church. Think of Enoch and Moses, then Lehi, Alma and Samuel the Lamanite from the Book of Mormon.

There Is a Strange Thing in the Land

We are studying the Old Testament in our Gospel Doctrine class this year. We just learned about how the Lord called Samuel, even as a boy, who replaced Eli, who served as the Presiding High Priest in Israel at that time. In the New Testament we have the examples of John the Baptist and even the Savior who came from outside the accepted hierarchy of the day. The more you think about it, the more you will come to realize the Lord has always sent prophets to warn us of destruction and prepare us for Zion.

Just so I’m not misunderstood, I am going to be as clear as I know how to be. Although I am not the first to make this declaration, perhaps because of my leadership positions in the church over the years, and because of the prominence of my blog, I am going to place everything on the line in proclaiming what I know to be true through study and prayer. It will go contrary to what you have been taught over the years. You may find it outrageous and may be offended. Nevertheless, this is prompted by the Lord.

My Declaration of a New Prophet

I declare unto you, in all words of soberness, in words revealed unto me by the Lord, that He has sent a prophet to us within the last few years from outside the hierarchy of the Church, with a mission to teach us, to warn us, and to lead us to the Lord. I have spent hundreds of hours studying his published words. I have listened to his recorded teachings over this past year and have found truth in what he has shared. I have sat in his presence recently to test his spirit. I found no fault and have had my witness reaffirmed.

I declare unto you this prophet is acting as an Elias, or a John the Baptist, with the mission to prepare us to receive the Lord. More importantly, he is as Moses in striving to show us the way to the Lord, that we may enter into His presence in this life, to be prepared to be caught up to meet the inhabitants of the City of Enoch at the coming of the Lord. That event will be accompanied by great destructions. This is well known. Not as well-known is just how soon those destructions will begin to be poured out upon us.

I Am No Apostate – I am True and Faithful

I make this declaration knowing full well it is contrary to the traditions of our fathers and of our church, but it is not contrary to the ways of the Lord. You will know this if you take seriously the message of the Book of Mormon. Use the current mantra of the church in “Follow the Prophet” to study the words of this prophet. How can you judge a matter without studying it out, pondering it and praying about it? You may find it uncomfortable and unfamiliar at first, but I promise you, the Lord bears witness of the truth.

I am not alone in this declaration. There are hundreds, if not thousands, who also know this man to be a messenger sent from the Lord. You would think a church that teaches the importance of studying the Book of Mormon would stand by this doctrine of prophets coming from outside the hierarchical order of the established institution. Instead, they have cast this messenger out as an apostate. In so doing, they have violated the principles of the priesthood, and in effect, have rejected the fullness that was offered.

The Lord Will Reveal Himself to Us

The day of the Gentile is now past. It is over. The Gentile church rejected the fullness as prophesied. I am saddened to have been a witness to this event. I did not think it would happen in my day. I do not know the timetable of the Lord, but I do know we are now in the last days, not just the latter-days. I do not know what will happen to me. I only know I must do what I have covenanted to do. I have promised to stand as a witness of the Lord in all times and all places. I am called upon to bear my own witness.

I bear witness the Lord is willing to reveal Himself to us. We should be diligent in seeking His face. He has promised to come unto us, to not leave us comfortless. I know this is true. He has promised us He will bear witness of the truth of all things if we will but ask Him. I have done so. The Lord has made it clear I must share my witness in order to progress. I dare not disobey Him. I love Him. I seek to do his will. If I am cast out as an apostate, so be it. That will not change the priesthood He has given me.

A Few Closing Thoughts

You can hear this prophet for yourself. He is now declaring the message the Lord has given Him. He will be teaching in the desert for two days at the end of July - First in Las Vegas and then in St. George. This will give time for people to soften their hearts before the final message to be delivered in September in Phoenix. I pray the Lord will soften the hearts of the honest and believing blood of Israel before we reap the bitter harvest of our rejection of the fullness. The time is short. Great destructions now await us.

You can tell false prophets by their fruits. But you must study and understand the message they deliver before you can tell the Lord you have done as He has asked. Let the Lord take control. Let Him compel you and have dominion over your heart. Seek righteousness in your judgments. Do not add your “amen” to the rejection of a prophet, a true messenger sent to guide us in the way of salvation. I, for one, cast my lot with the Lord and what He has revealed. I stand by my sacred covenant. I am true to my promise.

Las Vegas and St. George



Las Vegas LectureDate:  Friday, July 25, 2014
Time: 9:30 a.m.
Place: Fiesta Henderson Hotel & Casino
777 West Lake Mead Parkway
Henderson, NV 89015
Seats: Cancun Room A/B, seats 150St. George Lecture

Date:  Saturday, July 26, 2014
Time:  9:30 a.m.
Place:  Lexington Hotel and Conference Center
850 Bluff Street
St. George, UT 84770
Seats:  Ballroom, seats 275

Note: The Ephraim talk is now online: http://www.scribd.com/doc/233544493/Ephriam-Transcript-Christ. How can anyone claim this man is teaching false doctrine? I still can't believe the church cast him out.

Update (7-14-14): There has been so much misunderstanding in regards to my declaration above, I feel the need to clarify. Note I did not proclaim this man was sent to be a prophet within the LDS church. In fact, I thought I made it especially clear he was sent from outside the hierarchy. I did NOT proclaim him to be an LDS prophet. I declared he was sent to us as a servant of the Lord with a message for all who would hear it.

The testimony of Jesus Christ is the spirit of prophecy, thus my declaration that he was / is a prophet. I stand by what I wrote. Please don't add inference that the messenger / servant I refer to has anything to do with the LDS church hierarchy. He is not part of the institutional church. Members of the LDS Church vote on our prophets. They are called and sustained by common consent. The whole point of the post was / is that this man was sent by the Lord with a message.

Update two (7-18-14): Many of you know I took my blog down for a day or two at the recommendation of my Bishop. There was so much interest in this post, my declaration and the ensuing commentary that I could not bear to disappoint those who come here for discussion. I brought the blog back online after 24 hours. I thank you for allowing me to read your comments. I am simply amazed at the awesome thoughtfulness that goes into the ideas you share. God bless you all.

Some of you know Jules and her blog, 2nd Witness. Although I promised I would not add any new posts until after I return from the two lectures in Las Vegas and St. George next weekend, I was made aware of this letter from Jules to her bishop(s) and simply could not resist sharing: http://2ndwitness.com/letter-of-dissent-jules.html I found it especially interesting as she added so many insights in the area of this original post: The Doctrine of Additional Prophets.

Comments

Eric said…
"And there ran a young man, and told Moses, and said, Eldad and Medad do prophesy in the camp. . . . And Moses said . . . would God that all the Lord’s people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them!” (Numbers 11:27, 29).

“My knowledge is, if you will follow the teachings of Jesus Christ and his Apostles, as recorded in the New Testament, every man and woman will be put in possession of the Holy Ghost; every person will become a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator, and an expounder of truth. They will know things that are, that will be, and that have been. They will understand things in heaven, things on the earth, and things under the earth, things of time, and things of eternity, according to their several callings and capacities” (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 1:243).
spektator said…
Tim,
I too am looking for the light The Lord has/will send to help prepare us. The Lord counted the Jews as His people until they rejected Him. I wonder if the times of the Gentiles has ended or if it will end when they reject Him? Why do you think the times of the Gentiles is over?

Spek
Honor said…
Thank you Tim. I agree and appreciate your witness. I especially appreciated this:

"The Lord has made it clear I must share my witness in order to progress. I dare not disobey Him. I love Him. I seek to do his will."

The Lord has asked me to do something hard and something that seems contrary to the traditional way, but like you said, if I wish to progress, I must obey. Thank you for providing me an additional witness of that path.
Lynn Bernhard said…
Wow. Great testimony. Thank you TIm. What more needs to be said? Lynn, now living alone in Ogden UT.
Adrian Larsen said…
Tim,

Well said, and eloquently and powerfully stated. I second your witness. I hope that many will come to this knowledge while there is still time to accept it.

Eternally important things are happening right here, right now, right under our noses. How many of us will take notice?
brotherjr said…
Thank you Tim. I was just in the Temple this afternoon. When the words of the law of conseration, wh. includes "for the building up of the Kingdom of God upon the earth and for the establishment of Zion" was presented, the Spirit testified to me that the Church is not doing this, rather, the Lord is calling people from outside the hierarchy to accomplish this. I too testify of the prophet you mentioned. He has been cast out just as Abinidi and (figuratively) burned at the Stake.
I have a testimony that he is indeed a prophet, something I have never received regarding the 15 who claim that title and wear it like a badge of distinction.
JR
Bruce said…
I also know this man to be sent from the Lord. Thanks for your testimony concerning this true messenger. It was well stated.
Jared said…
For the record, the church did not start sustaining both the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve as prophets, seers, and revelators until sometime in the mind 50s. My father remembers when they made this change. Previous to this, only the president of the church was sustained as a prophet, seer, and revelator. The scriptures make no case for anyone other than the president of the church being, or having the duty to becoming, a prophet, seer, and revelator. Our sustaining all 15 as prophets, seers, and revelators is new doctrine. It is false doctrine.

I will do some research and try to pin-point when this change took place.

On the whole, I love this blog post. I think it's spot on.
johnD said…
Tim, I agree, Pr. Monson is THE prophet, but there are others! I can say that I received a witness of the First Presidency three years ago during a General Priesthood session and it was strong, that they were there at the hand of the Lord and his servants, it came "without my supplication". I didn't know why until recently. I too have felt the spirit and "authority "in Denver's work! So wow!
knakaya said…
Good for you Tim. I applaud your courage, and obedience to the Lord. I hope you too are not cast out.
Donald said…
Amen.
Chris Harrison said…
Lynn and I used the "prophet" word to describe the role of that man a few months ago during one of our discussions. We jointly and quietly marveled at this. We agreed that his fruits were truth because as we have read his words our hearts have burned within us. The same burning I have felt when reading The Book of Mormon or the Lectures on Faith or passages from the Bible that testify of Christ. Thank you for sharing your witness.
Elias Returns said…
Tim,
Thank you dear and beautiful Brother for your testimony and standing for His Gospel. I stand with you Brother that The Lord has provided to us "another voice " in a Special Witness and Friend to Him. I testify that President Monson and the brethren are called by The Lord to teach and testify to the masses and majority of His Church. These are they who are willing to only hear the words of "milk" and not prepared to hear and start to live the words of "honey".
There are plenty of prophecy warning us about worshipping the "culture of the church" and not the Gospel of Jesus Christ. These are those days in which we live.
Kevin said…
For my benefit, can you share what prophecies Denver has made?
T.R. Repo said…
http://denversnuffer.blogspot.com/2013/03/a-sign.html
T.R. Repo said…
http://denversnuffer.blogspot.com/2012/10/parable.html
T.R. Repo said…
http://denversnuffer.blogspot.com/2010/04/awake-and-arise.html
T.R. Repo said…
and finally this:

"I could write my own Gospel. I could bear my own testimony. I could invent a new narrative about our Lord, if it were necessary to do so. But I will tell you the only thing that is necessary is to open the scriptures and read them, and to tell you, the things that we looked at tonight are true. Like Jacob.In fact, if you go all the way back to Jacob chapter 6:
1: “
And now, behold, my brethren, as I said untoyou that I would prophesy, behold, this is my prophecy

that the things which this prophet Zenos spake,concerning the house of Israel, in the which he likened them unto a tame olive-tree, must surely cometo pass.

So here are the words my prophecy: That the things that we have looked at this evening,restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith, the seer named Joseph, the son of the father named Joseph, fulfilled the promise of Joseph of Egypt, and they are all true. I know them to be true. And you could know them to be true too. But the price you have to pay to gain that knowledge is to study what was restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith. Otherwise, they're just something gathering dust on a shelf. Don't read them as if you're trying to vindicate the religion you already understand. Don't read them as if you're trying to defend your current group of preferred doctrines. Read them as if you are as ignorant of the will of God as the convert you hope to make living somewhere in Florida or New Guinea or Guatemala. Because the truth of the matter is we have been devolving in our understanding from the day of Joseph Smith until today at an ever accelerating rate. And what we have left, Enoch called gross darkness.I bear testimony that Joseph Smith was a Prophet. I bear testimony that our Lord lived and lives.I'm one of those who can say that I am a witness of that. I have seen His suffering. I have heard His voice. He doesn't intend that I be a solitary witness of Him, or Joseph be one. He intends for everyone of you to rise up and do as James bids you to do. If you lack wisdom, ask God. He gives to you, He gives to all of us liberally. He is real. It is His work to bring this stuff to pass. The only thing that we can do is to offer to be a servant. And I am confident that I am a poor one of those. But I am His servant. I serve Him however poorly, however offensively, however inadequately. He intends to call, in the plural, servants to fulfill what needs to be done in the last days. He does intend to bring again Zion. That will be his, and not a man's work."
Eric said…
Let me know what you find out.

D&C 124:94 indicates Joseph & Hyrum would be prophets, seers, and revelators, by the way.
dan said…
Tim,
You have such amazing faith and strength...I share your testimony about Denver...I listened to his message in Ephriam and my heart sang with joy... He has led me closer To Jesus than I ever have been. He revealed the truth about the return of The Lord...if we are prepared then Jesus will come as a Lamb..if we are not..then His coming will be as that of a fierce Lion! I have never felt more of a desire to cast off all my sins...The day of The Lord is verily at hand .
shylohw said…
Tim, I almost don't dare to ask......something is different with this post.....the language you are using....your witness....your covenant....priesthood....I hope you have received what you have been longing for! God bless.
Jared said…
It appears I may be wrong about this. According to the official records I've found, the General Conference of the church sustained the President of the church, and ‘The counselors in the First Presidency, the Twelve Apostles. and the Patriarch to the Church as Prophets, Seers and Revelators.” between 1936 and 1969, and between 1897 and 1899. Between 1900 and 1935 it doesn't look like the Patriarch to the church was sustained as a prophet, seer, and revelator. I don't now where to find access to the General Conference reports from before 1897.

I don't know how accurate these official reports are, or if they might have been changed.

I think that what my father was possibly referring to was changes in the temple recommend questions. I really don't know though.

In the Doctrine and Covenants, the only ones ever referred to as prophets, seers, and revelators were Joseph and Hyrum.

The official history of the church claims the Twelve were sustained as prophets, seers, and revelators during the Kirtland Temple dedication; but that record was continually revamped into the late 1800s and is far from reliable.

Bottom line: there are many incongruencies here that we are far from getting to the bottom of.

I apologize for my earlier unresearched assertions.
brotherjr said…
Tim,
I want to thank you for your courage in presenting your thoughts and experiences. When I read your comment that Denver is the Elias, it triggered my memory that the Spirit testified of that same fact to me a while back. Yes, this man is the forerunner, sent to prepare the way because those charged with that responsibility have fallen asleep. Just as in Father Lehi's day, the leaders of the Church are too busy running to and fro over the world and guarding the "sanctity" of the doctrine to do what needs to be done in truly building up the Kingdom of God upon the earth, and establishing Zion, so the Lord is calling prophets from outside the hierarchy. We have entered the time which Ezekiel spoke of in Ez. 34, when the Lord Himself will gather His sheep and feed them and lead them to Zion, because the shepherds have been too busy feeding themselves and clothing themselves with the wool they have sheared from the peope. I also agree with the writer above who mentioned that Denver's words lift him like the Book of Mormon does. Both are truly inspired of the Lord.
JR
jared said…
Tim-I very sorry to see you make this announcement. I believe you are deceived. The Book of Mormon teaches the following regarding times like we're living in now.


15 And it came to pass that after there had been false Christs, and their mouths had been shut, and they punished according to their crimes;
16 And after there had been false prophets, and false preachers and teachers among the people, and all these having been punished according to their crimes...behold, it came to pass that king Benjamin, with the assistance of the holy prophets who were among his people—
17 For behold, king Benjamin was a holy man, and he did reign over his people in righteousness; and there were many holy men in the land, and they did speak the word of God with power and with authority; and they did use much sharpness because of the stiffneckedness of the people—
18 Wherefore, with the help of these, king Benjamin, by laboring with all the might of his body and the faculty of his whole soul, and also the prophets, did once more establish peace in the land.

(Book of Mormon | Words of Mormon 1:15 - 18)

Denver Snuffer is not assisting the prophets. He is leading faithful members away. You're an example. I hope you will find your way back.
Annalea said…
jared, I'm having trouble seeing how that passage fits our times. What prophets "are among the people" now?

When the Book of Mormon says "prophet", it means one who actually carries the same kind of mantle, who does the very same work, whose life bears the same fruits, as prophets in the scriptures. If we have many of these, I would love to know where they are hiding, and what they have prophesied. Samuel stood upon the city wall. Jonah cried aloud in the streets of Ninevah. Aaron stood before King Lamoni's father. Joseph taught the assembled saints many, many times. Scriptural prophets are, literally, among the people. Living in their cities, eating with them, working side-by-side with them, interacting with them on a daily basis as members of their communities.

What false christs have there been among us? What crimes have they committed? How were they punished?

When the Book of Mormon says "many", it really means *many*. Not one, not a handful or two. Many.

The Lord of Hosts works openly, so we can see that His words are being fulfilled. He will not pour out the judgements prophesied after His servants quietly fulfilling everything in some remote, shadowy corner. Those who stand to reap the whirlwind do so after repeated warnings and opportunities to return to Him.
brotherjr said…
Jared,
When I watch the smooth talks in general conference sometimes it makes me gag…talks about their wife's brownies and other feel-good-about-yourself tripe is worthless in bringing people to Christ.
In the scripture you quoted "there were many holy men in the land, and they did speak the word of God with power and with authority; and they did use much sharpness because of the stiffneckedness of the people". I can't even remember the last time I heard a general authority speak the word of God with "power and authority and sharpness".
If Denver is not assisting "the prophets" it is because "the prophets" are too busy feeding themselves and resting on their plush red chairs high up on the podium to do the Lord's work. The Lord is calling other men to do His work because the shepherds have fallen asleep.
JR
stephen said…
Tim, how do true prophets cast out a true prophet? Something's got to give here, no?
Karl said…
Tim, I share your frustration at what passes as prophecy, revelation and seership in the modern form of the church. Members high and low are hungering and thirsting after righteousness and all they get are recirculated spiritual leftovers, meal after meal. I get that. Further, I see no scriptural basis whatsoever for giving the title of prophet, seer and revelator to the Twelve. The D&C never gives that designation to them. If only one man holds all the keys, then that is the only individual that should be designated with the title. As for the use of the term prophet, any man that has the testimony of Jesus, has the spirit of prophecy, and is hence a prophet. That's according to Joseph Smith. I do believe it is possible that the leaders are focused on all the wrong things, and that the only way the Lord can get the restoration moving strongly again is to have those arise outside the hierarchy to start pointing the way. These antagonists are not there, however, to "compete" with the Brethren. They are there to be a thorn in the side of the Brethren, until the Brethren are willing to humble themselves and get refocused on the fundamentals of the gospel message, and get in line with what they should have been spending their time on all along. So far, as illustrated well by the Kate Kelley debacle, the Brethren are not budging from their standard response to lay members which has been control and suppression of all antagonists. But make no mistake: Mormonism can and will begin to change; but like a huge ocean freighter, change takes time and energy. You can't change 100 years of doctrinal drift in an instant; such a drastic change would tear the body of Christ asunder. This will have to be done in degrees. We can pray for the Brethren and exercise utmost charity for their situation. Please understand that the Brethren have inherited from their predecessors 100 years of doctrinal drift. I believe that Lowell Bennion, Hugh Nibley, Paul and Margaret Toscano, Avraham Gileadi, along with many other, and now Denver Snuffer are all coming from the same tradition. All we can do is pray that the Brethren will start to pay attention to these messengers. In this sense they are all prophets, as every one of us are called to do. All the hand wringing and angst over what the Brethren do is totally unnecessary. If the true way to salvation is open to each individual, which is a prime message of Snuffer, then every individual can find their way home, without regard to the machinations of leaders. We can both be faithful to the leadership in terms of sustaining, etc., while understanding that applying the gospel and obtaining the fruits is an individual pursuit. Even if you believe the Brethren are totally off base in what they are doing and pursuing, so what? That doesn't stop you from obtaining the constant direction of the Holy Ghost, then the spiritual gifts, then revelations, visions, C&E visitations from Angels, and then a visit from the Lord Himself as the Second Comforter. I fear that way too many bloggers are using these problems in administration in the Church as an excuse to get off or take a break from the Straight and Narrow Path, and are thereby losing their way in the Mists of Darkness. I know from my personal experience that traversing the Narrow Path is arduous, and the further one goes, the tougher it becomes. It is tempting to take a break, and get sidetracked, even by diversions that seem worthy of our attention. Personally, I won't make any comment or action that could be construed as an assault on the Brethren, because for me it would be a diversion from my prime goal which is to finish my course on the Narrow Path. May God bless all of us in our pursuit to gain all the promises of the Gospel.
Bryce Stevenson said…
Thank you Tim!!

Doesn't it feel good to get that out? I too have been carrying this around for way too long and I wish that I were an angel and could declare it with the sound of a trump. God is moving and it is glorious to witness. Denver is a Prophet called by God and we ignore his message at our peril! May we all soften our hearts as Tim has encouraged and look deeper into the things of God, especially the Book of Mormon and hear it's true message.
Gary Gibson said…
Tim,

I have been suspicious of this for a while now.

After the Ephraim talk, I am now completely convinced.

The latter day Moses is now among us and has given us an undeclared declaration.

The Lord has now set his hand again the second time to recover His people.

I receive this prophet, this latter day John the Baptist.

Gary Gibson
Gary Gibson said…
Bryce,

It does indeed feel good to get it out! It is sweet and delicious.

Gary Gibson
Thank you Tim.

I also encourage all to study and listen to the message that Denver is teaching. It has helped me become close to my Savior and Know Him better than I thought possible.

"But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do good continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and enticeth to do good, and to love God, and to serve him, is inspired of God.
For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as PLAIN, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night." (Moroni 7: 13 ,15)

"Now, this was what Ammon desired, for he knew that king Lamoni was under the power of God; he KNEW that the dark VEIL of UNBELIEF was being CAST away from his MIND, and the light which did light up his mind, which was the light of the glory of God, which was a marvelous light of his goodness—yea, this light had infused such joy into his soul, the cloud of darkness having been dispelled, and that the light of everlasting life was lit up in his soul, yea, he knew that this had overcome his natural frame, and he was carried away in God." (Alma 19:6)

Jared Almond
Yes, that is true, of course. But that does not give the "everyday Prophet" the authority to guide the LDS Church. Look here, there are many truths that I have from the Lord that I will not shout from the house tops, because its not my job. Denver may be a prophet in his own home. (I certainly consider to myself to have certain powers -- more than a man -- due to certain gifts of the Spirit that I receive from time to time.) But I don't see that its my job to teach all I have. (I don't go around teaching Adam-God, for example, because the GA's have said we will ex you for that teaching.) yes, I open my mouth, and I'm fairly daring; but I've not had any takers, in all my years of showing people great stuff. Its an individual thing. Most people are not ready; they're just not ready. In fact, the BoM tells us exactly how far we are intended to go publicly. See 3 Nephi 11. Up to and through Baptism of Fire is what we are commanded to teach (no more and no less -- which was an issue for me, but I let it). Entering Christ's present through the use of temple ordinances is not taught in the BoM -- see, because it is a mystery, not to disclosed to those who are not ready.
However, I think there is a doctrinal issue (something lost to general knowledge) that takes the pressure off of one (to some degree) and removes the intense need to redirect the church during this cycle of "time and eternity." You guys are all good folks; I see that; Denver is great with the history; but he's not heavy in doctrine, really. This is a Telestial Kingdom; a judgement sphere. (Listen to the Temple narrative -- oh, Tim, you can't do that any more :) Anyway, once you realize that Joseph and others have taught that this TK is not a one-chance system, then you realize that its not so important to press everyone to reach your level. (I have a short blog on the subject, that no one reads, so I don't get in trouble. http://dgenetaylor.blogspot.com/2013/07/eternal-progression.html
The point is that its not so critical to "save" everyone this "time" around.
Open you eyes; hear what the temple teach about doctrine. Once you realize that even David has another shot at exultation (in the highest kingdom) then you can relax a bit. Work on your own progression; help where you can.
bd said…
It is not always necessary for an established leadership to be out of the way, or asleep, for the Lord to send another messenger.

Nephi was alive, well, and preaching when Samuel the Lamanite was sent. In fact, those who believed Samuel's teachings sought out Nephi for baptism. God could have had Nephi give the prophecy, but sent Samuel instead. Did Nephi see that as a threat to his authority among the Nephites?

It may be that the Lord has been working outside of the hierarchy as a test of the latter-day saints. It also protects, to a degree, the agency of the members of the church. Denver's words aren't binding to the church as a whole as something from Pres. Monson would be.
Anon said…
You realize, of course, that Joseph warned of idolizing him or any other man, be he a prophet or not. If you set up Denver in this way, you are only giving your agency to another, who may give you delusions... Because that's what prophets do.

The Gentiles will not have kings who raise up to them. Brother Brigham tried that road, and take a look at the fruits of his kingdom. Just be careful, because we Gentiles have a way of either killing or worshipping our prophets. I have yet to see an exception.
Great point! Guess one side might be making a mistake. I bet it is relevant now, in our day, to figure this out.

In Lehi's final days in Jerusalem, it appears that salvation and avoiding destruction were dependent on making the right decision.
Tim, you have followers. You are advocating. In my opinion, you stand a change of getting exed. I love you, man. And I'm concerned. Its not time to jump ship. Not yet.
Still no prophecy there. In any event, the ordinances are real, and they are symbols. Baptism in water is a symbol for the experience we are intended to have by "eventually" by being immersed in the Spirit. (Baptism of Fire.) Temple ordinances are the same. They represent the real thing that we must experience. So the Church Claims authority to Seal, etc., and they probably have that wrong, in one sense, not realizing its a symbol, a teaching tool. We have family members who received their Calling & Election under the direction President Monson; after that, I don't think this couple was looking for more (what I would call the real thing under the hands of the Lord.) So Denver's teaching is mostly true, but where's the beef? (no prophesy is what you have listed.)
Interesting. Good points.
Nonrandom Set said…
I'm having a hard time reconciling your statement that you sustain the church leaders with this statement: "In so doing, they have violated the principles of the priesthood, and in effect, have rejected the fullness that was offered."
rockwaterman1 said…
Tim, Kudos for speaking boldly and plainly. The truth WILL out. Continue to stand in the gap as God has instructed you to, and all will be well.
Bryce Stevenson said…
I think these verses from D&C 45 are being fulfilled as we speak. The light is breaking forth.

22 Ye say that ye know that the end of the world cometh; ye say also that ye know that the heavens and the earth shall pass away;
23 And in this ye say truly, for so it is; but these things which I have told you shall not pass away until all shall be fulfilled.
24 And this I have told you concerning Jerusalem; and when that day shall come, shall a remnant be scattered among all nations;
25 But they shall be gathered again; but they shall remain until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
26 And in that day shall be heard of wars and rumors of wars, and the whole earth shall be in commotion, and men’s hearts shall fail them, and they shall say that Christ delayeth his coming until the end of the earth.
27 And the love of men shall wax cold, and iniquity shall abound.
28 And when the times of the Gentiles is come in, a light shall break forth among them that sit in darkness, and it shall be the fulness of my gospel;
29 But they receive it not; for they perceive not the light, and they turn their hearts from me because of the precepts of men.
30 And in that generation shall the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
31 And there shall be men standing in that generation, that shall not pass until they shall see an overflowing scourge; for a desolating sickness shall cover the land.
Donald said…
Likewise noted.
Bryce Stevenson said…
The only word that is binding is God's word! If a man speaks His words it is binding regardless what institution you belong to.
BBB said…
Hi Tim, I have followed your blog for awhile now and love the deep doctrine you teach through your blog, you are a smart and amazing writer, I have learned a great deal from your blog. I also have read Denver Snuffer's books and followed his blog but something to me does not feel right when so many people are being led away. I went to the temple in deep prayer and felt some things are off about him, everyone is entitled to their worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of your own conscience, you live and believe what you feel is right but I honestly believe that Thomas Monson is a prophet of God for this church, I believe that Joseph Smith restored the true gospel and is a very humble and loving man that has spent more time with the saviour than anyone, he gave his life for us, that in this day and age when evil would take over in leaps and bounds we would feel the protection through living gospel principles. The prophet and apostles dedicate their lives through the world over to bring us the Standard of Truth, I really love alot of your work but I think Christ should be your focus through the book of mormon and temple covenants.
bd said…
I agree God's word is binding, but there is also a principle of being accountable to the light given you. Even Jesus used parables to conceal meaning from those unprepared.

I think that if such messages came via "official" channels, some would accept it only because of the office. Do we as LDS idolize the president to the point that receiving a message through him is no longer a test but a source of pride?

His sheep will hear his voice.
Bill Berrett said…
I also sustain what the Lord is doing with His Kingdom. Thanks for what you are writing. The game is afoot. Thanks for playing. It is for keeps.
Boo said…
Tim as you know i have occasionally disagreed with you. i still see your turning in your temple recommend as unnecessarily empowering your ecclesiastical leaders to exercise unrighteous dominion but I agree with your assessment of Denver Snuffers mission. I was there listening to him and while I have read all his books and attended or listened to all of his lectures and found them all profitable my experience in Epharim was qualitatively different. i received a strong witness that he was speaking as a "true messenger" and we ignore his words at our peril. i assume sadly that you will be excommunicated but stand with you as you do those things the Savior has commanded you. I will, as William Tyndale did, pray earnestly that God will open the eyes of our leaders and that you will not be sacrificed in the cause of the Savior. God bless you.
jared91 said…
Annalea-I've learned in the nearly eight years I've been blogging and commenting in the bloggernacle that it does little good to attempt to answer questions such as you have asked. It ends up being a debate and usually accomplishes nothing.

In the verse I quoted above a church hadn't been organized. An organized church in the Book of Mormon didn't exist until Alma the older's day. Alma was "the founder of their church" (Mosiah 23:16).

Prior to that they obviously had prophets but not apostles. They had priesthood authority to baptize for the purpose of receiving the Holy Ghost. They practiced the law of Moses, but they didn't have a church as we do today.

It wasn't until the Savior came among the Nephites that they had a church with apostles and prophets.

I assume you know all of this but your question left me wondering.

Lastly, we have prophets in every ward and stake in the church.

The definition of a prophet is a person who knows by personal revelation from the Holy Ghost that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, "for the testimony of Jesus is is the spirit of prophecy." Rev. 19:10.
Bryce Stevenson said…
I agree with that completely! Denver has thus far been expounding the very scriptures we currently claim to believe to be the word of God. We have these truths in front of our eyes, the accountability already exists and no member of this church will be able to say they didn't have access to the truth.
Tim Malone said…
I confess I had not expected this response. I removed the links to Facebook as requested by my local priesthood leader. Most of the private emails were coming from old friends there. That apparently did not make a difference with this post. Apparently I have upset more than a few people who were willing to break their silence in correcting me privately. I appreciate their loving concern and promise to keep those private emails private.

I would like to respond in a general nature to some of the points raised. First, how does one know a prophet? One answer is in Ex 33:11 - "The Lord spake unto Moses face to face as a man speaketh unto a friend." How many men do you know who have said The Lord appeared unto them and spoke with them face to face? So far, I only know of biblical prophets, Joseph Smith and one other.

Response to the second point made by so many in emails and other conversations this day: "God doesn't work that way today. You are not supposed to talk about those things." With all due respect, if a man does not declare to me and the world he has seen and spoken with The Lord, how am I to know I should listen to him? Although I have not heard President Monson proclaim he has seen and spoken with the Lord face to face, I follow the traditional and customary practice of sustaining him as a prophet.

One more scripture may be helpful: Numbers 12:6-8 - "If there be a prophet among you, I, The Lord will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream. My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house. With him will I speak mouth to mouth..." This is how we can know if The Lord has sent us a prophet.

I know a man who says he has seen The Lord. He says The Lord has asked him to help us understand the scriptures as they relate to what The Lord is about to do in these last days. Everything I have heard from this man is verified, at least in my studies, by scripture and by the whisperings of the Holy Ghost unto my soul. I have learned to trust that spirit, promised to me in my patriarchal blessing.

How can anyone say a man is not a prophet if they have not studied his words? How can anyone say The Lord would not allow a man to declare he has seen The Lord? How else can we know? If The Lord visits us and asks us to bear witness of it, we can and should do so, no matter the cost, or so we have been taught and believe as Mormons. Otherwise our belief in the testimony of Joseph Smith is in vain.
Lizzie Nelson said…
Tim, I stand in awe of your courage and valor. Thank you for your testimony.
Kathryn said…
On another thread, I presented this definition of a “prophet” which I think is appropriate for this discussion.

The Hebrew word of the Old Testament that is translated as “prophet” is pronounced naw-bee. It means an inspired speaker, as in an in-spirit-ed speaker. The key to knowing whether a prophet is of the LORD, or not, is to recognize what spirit the prophet is inspired by – the Holy Spirit of God, or the spirit of Satan.


The Hebrew definition certainly leaves room for prophets through out all of history and more than one prophet at one time.

Isaac Newton, not only was a key figure in the scientific revolution, he was also considered a “prophet” by the Hebrew definition. He was considered to be devout but unorthodox Christian and was at odds with the Church of England because he rejected the doctrine of the Trinity. Newton predicted or prophesied many things... one being “In a manuscript he wrote in 1704 in he estimated that the world would end no earlier than 2060.” (Hmmmm we'll see how close he comes.)

In 1807 William Wordsworth wrote “Ode: Intimations of Immortality. Its prophetic message expresses insights that Joseph Smith would later confirm.

In the fifth stanza, he proclaims that human life is merely “a sleep and a forgetting”—that human beings dwell in a purer, more glorious realm before they enter the earth. “Heaven,” he says, “lies about us in our infancy!” As children, we still retain some memory of that place, which causes our experience of the earth to be suffused with its magic—but as the baby passes through boyhood and young adulthood and into manhood, he sees that magic die. In the sixth stanza, the speaker says that the pleasures unique to earth conspire to help the man forget the “glories” whence he came.

My understanding that Lehi was one of many prophets of his day. He was “visionary man,” which disturbed his family greatly. He learned to trust his dreams and when the Lord told him to leave Jerusalem, he pack up his family and left. Nephi, wanted to know what his father knew and because of his great faith, he was given the opportunity to see visions, and reported what he had seen. Wow... two prophets in one family.

Yes, based on the Hebrew definition, many prophets can and do exist at one time. Denver Snuffer fits in this category.

I find his words to be extra ordinary. They have inspired me to take a new look at who I worship and why. Through his admonition I have dug deeper into the scriptures, like never before. I have grown to love the Book of Mormon much deeper than ever before. I have never had more of a desire to strengthen my relationship with Christ as I do now. His writings and have had a powerful influence on me for the better.

However, with that being said, I have not yet had a witness that he replaces or stands before the agreement I have made to honor and sustain Thomas S Monson as the prophet of the Lord for His Church at this time.
Always Pondering said…
I believe there are many who are "sleeping through the restoration," but I don't believe it's Pres. Uchtdorf, nor his associates. I trust that they are guided by the spirit. I believe that we all kind of get into "zones" with the spirit, meaning that we tend to hear what's in our zone, and then begin to feel that any other thing outside that zone is false. I did this with Ordain Women---feminism is outside my zone and I presumed it to be false. But her on Tim's blog, and other blogs I have read a lot about the teachings of Jesus to study, ponder, and pray. Over the past year, I did this with OW and other sites. I have learned how narrow my zone is and that the Holy Ghost, the testified of all things true, is far greater than all our zones put together. And beyond that. And still beyond that. Perhaps the Brethren do not sleep, but have "zones" also-- more zones then we do, perhaps, but still zones.

I have read all DS's books and most of his blog. I have a hard time getting past my zone sometimes with a few of his teachings. But far and away, I have felt the spirit when I've read his writings. He has blessed me to search, ponder, and pray with greater faith and hope. So has Kate Kelly. So has John Dehlin. There are others who have helped me grow closer to the spirit and the Savior, when at first assessment I would have been sure this could not be the case.

They did this to Samuel, the Lamanite. They shot arrows at him to destroy him. Because he wasn't a Nephite? In Nephi's presidency? Because he wasn't Nephi?

Please, don't let me think my zone is everything. Please, don't let me shoot arrows at any prophet of God. Please grant us all the precious gift of discernment in ever increasing abundance as we navigate our discipleships Home.
A reader said…
It's worth noting, for the benefit of the SCMC reading here, that there is a big difference between Brent's statements that he was ex'd for, and what Tim is saying here. Brent said that Snuffer is a prophet and Monson isn't ; Tim still proclaims that Monson is a prophet.
I have followed Tim's blog, and many others, and have felt to share some things on occasion. I have always been one who likes to see the best in people even if I didn't agree with them.

It is the desire of all of us to be understood in what we say or do. We also seek to understand what other's are sharing with us. Indeed Bro. Covey said it best in his book, "The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People", 'seek first to understand, then to be understood'. This is great counsel. It feels good in my soul and expands my understanding of others.

I have seen so much judgement in some of the statements here. One has no right to interfere in the path another takes. For me to judge Denver I would have to understand the man, the mission he feels he is on, and the sum total of his life's experiences. At the least I would have to read all of his books in order to judge the man. No one should be judged in ignorance. That's not in the gospel plan.

I sense that too many have judged Denver Snuffer on perceived injustices they feel he has committed. He is a humble man and one who wants no following. He wants no accolades from the masses. He shy's away from any kind of "worship the man" in any of its forms. Is he bold in his statements? Yes, of course he is. He has practiced his profession very successfully; and as an attorney he speaks matter-of-factually. He shows both sides of the pictures as I would expect an attorney to do so. That does not make him "anti-Brethren".

Let the Holiest Father work his work and then measure the fruits. As far as I can tell in everything that Denver has published he has sought to bring others unto Christ and to the Father. Let them be his judge. We have to be careful on how we judge another who may very well be doing what the Lord has given him to do.

As Joseph Smith said the priesthood is "an onerous responsibility" and not something to benefit from. As soon as we engage in any kind of hypocrisy or ridicule by virtue of the priesthood then "Amen to that priesthood" (D&C 121).

Tim is a humble follower of his God and I hope he has the strength to stay the course that he believes the Lord has placed him on. We should all feel so impressed to help each other bear one another's burdens and thereby live or take the higher road.
joshuamaskovich said…
Bryce,

Amen. Like you, I've pondered these very same verses of scripture for months now.

I think you would also find the JST of Isaiah 42:19-23 interesting and the entire chapter 42 of Isaiah, which speaks of "...for a covenant of the people for a light of the Gentiles."

JST Psalm 14:7--"Oh that Zion were established out of Heaven, the salvation of Israel. O Lord, when wilt thou establish Zion? When the Lord bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, Israel shall be glad."

The cure/my cure lies in repentance and regardless of what may come, I know the Lord will still work to save men's souls.
Annalea said…
Jared91, thank you for your response. I understand your approach, as I've used it many times myself. Answering every question raised only serves to obfuscate the underlying issue. I could have just as easily posted my first sentence, and left it at that.

Your response, though, doesn't help me see how the scripture you quoted fits our times. Could you elucidate that a bit for me, please?
Good Will said…
Jared,

When the Cambellites (Sidney Rigdon, etc.) discovered the "Mormons" and their golden Bible, they concluded that the time to "restore" the New Testament church had, at last, arrived (as they had hoped it would). Rigdon embraced the golden Bible -- and Joseph Smith's teachings -- and encouraged his congregants to do likewise, thus tripling the size of the nascent "Mormon" sect. He subsequently persuaded Joseph Smith to seek guidance on how to "set up" the Church. Joseph received the pattern we have today (more or less) in answer to his prayers.

It is a divine pattern -- patterned after the family of God: Abraham, Isaac and Jacob -- but it is certainly not the only pattern.

The Cambellites wanted a church. You'll notice there is no "church" like the LDS Church in the verses you quoted. The "prophets" were "among his people" and "in the land", like Snuffer is. Tim is right. We should all be prophets. Does the sun only shine on 15 acres of land? Or does the rain fall into only 15 buckets? Tim is not advocating that anyone reject the LDS Church or even not follow its leaders! What he is saying is "Lo, here! Here is another prophet!" So what? By their fruits ye shall know them.

I see nothing but good (so far) in what Denver Snuffer has done and taught. Like Pontius Pilate said, I find no fault with the man. Why is he now an "apostate"? What "crime" has he committed? What "false doctrine" has he taught? I know of none.

Denver Snuffer has brought me closer to Christ than anyone, save Joseph Smith. Is that a sin?
Another Reader said…
A reader, your post makes me wonder WHY you would want to point something like this out. Are you part of spy on the members committee? I might be wrong but if I remember things right, Brent said he hasn't received a confirmation/answer/testimony that Monson is a prophet and that he felt Denver is a Prophet like Joseph Smith is and that there hasn't been a Prophet like Joseph Smith since Joseph Smith died.
Tim, thank you so much for this blog post. I understand where you are coming from and completely agree with you! My best!
shylohw said…
Brigham Young: "Perhaps it may make some of you stumble, were I to ask you a question - Does a man's being a Prophet in this Church prove that he shall be the President of it ? I answer, no ! A man may be a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator, and it may have nothing to do with his being the President of the Church. Suffice it to say, that Joseph was the President of the Church, as long as he lived; the people chose to have it so. He always filled that responsible station by the voice of the people. Can you find any revelation appointing him the President of the Church? The keys of the Priesthood were committed to Joseph to build up the Kingdom of God on the earth, and were not be taken from him in time or in eternity; but when he was called to preside over the Church, it was by the voice of the people; though he held the keys of the Priesthood, independent of their voice." Journal of Discourses 1:133.
A reader said…
I mean no offense, That was just my understanding of what Brent said. I retract it if I am in error.
Eric said…
Apparently, the 12 were sustained as prophets, seers, & revelators in History of the Church 2:417 (Kirtland Temple dedication, 1836). (I think this is the reference Jared was referring to.)

Some pre-1897 quotes are also found in Journal of Discourses 19:114 (1877), 19:124 (1877), 19:163 (1877), 21:47 (1879), 21:298 (1880), & 25:145 (1878).

A couple of the above quotes are interesting:

"We sustain our brethren of the twelve, as prophets, seers, and revelators; and I have heard it remarked by some brethren, that they could not see any need of doing so, and that holding up their hands does not make those men prophets, seers and revelators. That is true enough as far as it goes. But by sustaining these brethren in our customary way, we manifest to God . . . that we are willing to receive any revelation that the higher powers may see fit to communicate through them in that capacity. . . . we have men presiding over us in this Church through whom the word of the Lord will come in our present circumstances for our guidance and for the guidance of the whole Church in its onward march, as the exigencies of the case may require. And when we lift up our hands to heaven to sustain them, we manifest that we hold ourselves in readiness to receive the word of the Lord whenever he sees fit to impart it to us. They are the legal channels; they are the appointed receptacles to receive the words of the Lord for us as an organized body; and by lifting up our hands to heaven in this way, we show to God and to angels, that we are ready at any time, if the Lord has a word of revelation to communicate to us, to receive it" (Charles Penrose, JD 21:47).

"We are presented before the Church, and sustained as prophets, seers and revelators, and we have received oftentimes the gift of prophecy and revelation, and have received many great and glorious gifts. But have we received the fullness of the blessings to which we are entitled? No, we have not. . . . Now I don't think many of us have attained to these gifts, but it is not the fault of the Almighty, but the fault is in ourselves. And can they be realized by us? Certainly they can, if we are faithful in seeking for them" (Orson Pratt, JD 25:145).

But as Karl posted earlier, below:
All the hand wringing and angst over what the Brethren do is totally unnecessary.

God can do all things. If God wants someone to receive a certain blessing, nothing can stand in His way.

"[D]on't make any hasty moves, you may be saved. If a spirit of bitterness is in you, don't be in haste. You may say, that man is a sinner. Well, if he repents, he shall be forgiven. Be cautious: await" (Joseph Smith, History of the Church 6:315).

I remain patient that God is well aware of what's going on in the Church and in the world and will handle things as He sees fit.
Another Reader said…
I did not see a reply button under your last comment so I will use this one. I am not really offended, I wanted to point out that what I remembered was different. So for your behalf and those who are in the spy on the members committee, I will copy paste a part of Brent's comment he made to a 70 that was interviewing him. (which by the way, I totally do not think anything Brent said online was something he should have been excommunicated for! The church makes up their own definition for apostasy and I don't think that is right!)

Many people who comment here also members of or lurk around LDSFF so they will be familiar where this comes from. http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=34073

Larsen: .......... I mean, I’m just saying I don’t have a testimony of Thomas S. Monson. I’ve asked; I just haven’t gotten one yet. Maybe I’ll get one later; I don’t know. And yet, by the same token, I think that Denver Snuffer is, but he has no keys, he has no authority, he can’t get—what—who cares? It’s so unimportant that it’s amazing to me that it’s—I mean, I said in my, in the letter and, you know, in the thing like I believe Luke was a prophet. And I don’t think that that’s not okay. Luke was never a member of the quorum of the twelve apostles, and I really think Luke was a prophet. It’s just my definition. By the same token, I think that the Doctrine and Covenants gives that mantle and that title to Thomas S. Monson, and I sustain him as such. But that’s different from having had a witness that he is.

AND Brent said in this statement that he Does sustain Monson.....so I do feel like I want to put this "out there" for people to read....I get putting our own opinion of what we understand what people say....but clearly...I do believe Brent was clear in what he said. Brent does not even know who I am, I am not related to him or anything.....
By the way...spy on the members committee...I too know that Denver is A Prophet...In the TRUE Biblical Sense!!!
Tim Malone said…
Please pardon me for not being engaged in the dialog here today. I have been in meetings and with friends for most of the day. It has been a day of fasting and prayer. It has been a day of counseling with my bishop. Because I love my bishop and value his counsel, I am going to take a break from blogging at least until after I return from Las Vegas and St George on the 25th and 26th. I look forward to reading and responding to your comments, including the private emails, over the next few days. Thank you to everyone who shared their thoughts.

God bless
I am a follower of the Tim Man! Yes you have followers and I am inclined to trust you. Make sure you know what you are doing, but I promise I won't hold you responsible for me. I would like to see you stay in the Church I have enlisted in and I don't want you ex'd either. We can't defend our church from the outside.
Wouldn't common consent have made it legal and commonly consented which makes it OK? The Church is ebbing into an inevitable round of apostasy (or chaos), but isn't that natural and needed in order for us to be restored in Zion? Our church's problems and strengths are the sum total of all for all. Finding something false therefore about doctrines or practices is like finding well-exposed easter eggs on an open lawn. The trick is in how we endure to the end without losing our peace with God.
Annalea said…
The current definition of "apostasy" and the TR question that asks if we "affiliate, support or agree" with anyone or anything contrary to the doctrines of the church means that anyone can have their recommend pulled, or be ex'ed, at any time, for nearly any un-correlated thoughts, words, or actions.
Kay Webster said…
In response to Donald Gene Taylor's comment: "Yes, that is true, of course. But that does not give the 'everyday Prophet' the authority to guide the LDS Church. Look here, there are many truths that I have from the Lord that I will not shout from the house tops, because its not my job."

Denver Snuffer is not trying to "guide the LDS Church" or displace any of those who preside. He is simply declaring repentance to this generation and extending an invitation to come unto Christ to any who will hear. I have received a witness that the words he declares come from the Lord. Any time the Lord has a message to deliver He may choose whom he will to deliver that message, whether it be from the hierarchy of His Church or whether it is delivered through another vessel. In fact, if the Lord sent this same message to us through President Monson I would just as readily receive it and recognize it as a message from Him.

As well, if YOU haven't been commanded to deliver a message to anyone outside your delegated authority then so be it; but that doesn't mean others haven't been asked or required to do so.

You would decide FOR GOD whom he may speak through? I wouldn't dare presume to decide what he may or may not do.

My responsibility and privilege is to hear His voice from whomever he chooses to send.

I praise and thank God for speaking to us again through a prophet and for giving us this opportunity to come unto Christ and prepare ourselves for His return.
Ruth said…
There are several places in the bible and the BoM where we are told that prophets (plural) came to preach and warn the people. These were men not necessarily in the leadership of the religion. I don't understand why people today would reject that notion when it is clearly scriptural. The difference is that they may not hold all the keys, as the lds leaders do, but they are prophets none the less. I don't have the exact verse at hand, but I believe it was Moses who said he wished that all men were prophets . Let's study the scriptures people!
sfort said…
shylohw,

Brilliant piece. Ole' Brigham is a dichotomy for sure, but this one comment I have felt known to me for some time. It rings true. Great addition. Thanks
Always Pondering said…
I'm sorry to hear this, but respect your decision. I've been studying Isaiah, which isn't easy for me. I'll keep busy there while you're on hiatus. But I'll miss your thought-provoking posts.
Sharon Schade said…
“Update: 7 July 2014 - At the request of my local priesthood leaders, I have reverted the blog to an earlier version that does not contain the controversial / offensive posts to orthodox / conservative LDS readers.”

Well, at least I have some email newsletters, but I REALLY REALLY enjoyed your perspectives on so many things that I have wondered about AND you have hlepd me STAY faithful in the LDS church ((((church)))

Is there a way of making your “removed” site like a private FB group for those that see HELP in your posts?

Blessings to you!!
Tim Malone said…
It was pointed out to me that the blog is archived in Google and Yahoo, so why remove it from public view? All that does is punish my readers who want to continue the dialog. I have restored the DNS links to the original site and look forward to reading and replying to your comments.
Xeng Lo said…
Tim - do you intend to continue blogging then? Or will you still be taking a hiatus for a yet to be determined period?
Tim Malone said…
My agreement with the Bishop was to wait until after I returned from the Vegas and St George lectures. I very much want to share my impressions from the Ephraim lecture. I will have to do that in the comments here. I also want to examine both sides of this question about prophets from outside the hierarchy. The pushback from the orthodox membership was overwhelming. I obviously touched on a sacred cow - follow the prophet.

It's apparently verboten to even ask, "what if he's incapacitated," or "what if he's expressing his opinion?" Are we no longer encouraged to get a witness of the truth for ourselves? I'm not trying to evoke doubt. It just seems there's an element of our membership that is very, very uncomfortable with even asking questions. Why is it so wrong to ask questions? Isn't that how we get answers? Sorry...didn't mean to go off on you there.

Yes, I fully intend to continue blogging. I tried to take the blog down in an effort to remove access to this latest post that is apparently so offensive, but all it did was get me dozens of emails asking for private copies, asking for the dialog to be restored so they could continue it privately and asking if the latest post could be transfered to the backup blog. It seemed pointless after so many reminded me the posts are always out there. The Internet never forgets anything, does it?
Xeng Lo said…
Indeed. I'm ashamed to admit that in my missionary set of scriptures, that infamous sentence on the Lord never allowing any man to lead the church astray is underlined in bright red. I wish I could say it had been crossed out and rejected, but I bought the notion, hook line and sinker for a long time. Oh well, live and learn.
tomirvine999 said…
Tim,

PLEASE keep your blog up! I was having serious withdrawal pains while it was down. If someone does not like your blog, then he or she can simply stay away.

(Disclaimer: I am still neutral towards Denver, but I appreciate the peripheral discussions.)

Thank you,
Tom
"The Lord bless thee, and keep thee: The Lord make His face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee: The Lord lift up His countenance upon thee, and give thee peace" Numbers 6

My Friend. The Lord keep thee in His all-capable hands.
Curious Workman said…
Hi Tim, I'm a long-time reader of your blog and have never posted a comment until now. I'm thankful that the "uncorrelated" version of your blog is back. I truly believe the Church needs people like you, faithful people who have doubts and ask questions, to be heard and not silenced. I am praying for you that you may remain in fellowship with the Church. Rom. 8:28, "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose."
Jared said…
The fact that so many people would be so very offended at the idea that other prophets could be sent by God exterior to the LDS general authorities, or that the LDS church could in any way be in error is very telling of the extreme idolatry and priestcraft had within the LDS church.

28 Behold, hath the Lord commanded any that they should not partake of his goodness? Behold I say unto you, Nay; but all men are privileged the one like unto the other, and none are forbidden.
29 He commandeth that there shall be no priestcrafts; for, behold, priestcrafts are that men preach and set themselves up for a light unto the world, that they may get gain and praise of the world; but they seek not the welfare of Zion. (Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 26:28 - 29)

The LDS church sets itself up as a light unto the world. They set the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve up as a light unto the world. They do not teach the fullness of the gospel, to include the Second Comforter, nor do they seek to establish a Zion where Christ dwells among us. Rather, the light is all on them. Just look at the curriculum. The LDS church is guilty of priestcraft and of casting out the Lord's prophets sent to warn and teach the fullness of His gospel. Furthermore, they seek to enforce their priestcraft with the sword of church discipline.

I prophesy, in the name of the Lord, that unless this is repented of very soon this will prove the entire downfall of the LDS church as we know it today.

This is indeed a very sad day. I pray that there will be at least one Alma had among the modern priests of wicked King Noah.

Tim, your meekness and submissiveness to your "priesthood" leaders is like crazy righteous. In your shoes, I don't know that I could be so meek and humble. God bless you my friend.
jockeybox said…
Someone has made a comment earlier that Samuel the Laminate had a prophetic message, even though Nephi was still THE prophet. A notable difference in this scenario is Nephi didn't cast-out/excommunciate Samuel or his message. When the fullness is rejected . . ." they shall be as salt that hath lost its savor, which is thenceforth good for nothing but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of my people" (3 Nephi 16:15)
Eric said…
I'm sure we all agree that Tim's soul must not be trifled with.

Now, it's easy for us to give lip service and root for Tim and prod him on.

And I think Tim wrote elsewhere that he will follow what the Lord commands him to do, even if that leads to excommunication.

But I'm curious:

If Tim ever does get excommunicated, will we, to show our full support, ask to have our own records removed? At the very least, will we make bold public statements and let our local leaders know about them?

Or will we just shrug it off and think, "oh well, that's kind of too bad, but that's just Tim's problem now"? Do we safely (& many anonymously) hide behind Tim's blog and use him as our "fall guy"?
I think it would be best if we "followed" what the Lord would have each one of do. It may not be the same for everyone. I for one would probably make public statements that I disagree with that course of action-if that ever happens. I would let my local leaders know what I think IF I am prompted to do so by the Lord.
Julie said…
It's not a matter of how to "root" for Tim. Like letyourlightshine, I believe the Lord will ask different things of each of us.

For example, I am also dismayed by the trends in the governance of the church. I also have been profoundly affected by the writings of Denver Snuffer. Honestly, I don't care if he's a prophet or not--what does that have to do with me? He has been a catalyst in my life, helping me change for the better. And that's what I believe a true prophet should be: a catalyst who inspires others to believe in God and repent, not a leader we owe obedience to. So the label "prophet" makes no difference to me.

I also feel no compulsion to reconcile what I believe about prophets, the last days, and the priesthood with the doctrine and tradition commonly accepted by the Church. Either I'm right or I'm not; either my beliefs help me down the path toward righteousness or not. I try to search for truth as I ponder the scriptures, and look for things that bring forth good fruit. I try to follow the guidance of the spirit as I choose how much to share with others in gospel discussions.

So far, I have felt impressed to keep certain things to myself and never say anything openly heretical at church, although I have been prompted to cross out of people's comfort zones--it is good to shake the foundation a bit, so those who build on sand become aware of the fact sooner rather than later.

I think maybe the Lord is putting the church on trial, and so He chose a few people through which to do it. It would explain why Tim feels compelled to force a confrontation with the leadership, although I think Tim is anything but confrontational. If he is excommunicated, I will mourn and pray for him because I know it will be hard on him and his family, but I will continue to do what I have been doing in my own branch until the Spirit tells me otherwise. We each have a role to play in what comes next; there's no bandwagon, just the script God gives each of us individually.
Julie said…
Tim, I'm dying to know--did Carol go with you to Denver's talk? What did she think? Have you been able to resolve any of your differences about what he teaches?
Annalea said…
Excommunication is such a huge deal, socially, in our church that I cannot see gentle-hearted Tim wanting others to bring it down upon themselves and their families in the name of solidarity to a friend.

That said, if Jesus directs you to do so, then by all means, follow Him. :)

I was not silent in mid-June when Kate Kelly, John Dehlin & Rock Waterman were all notified of their impending discipline. I was told clearly that I was not to be a mute witness to that bullying, but to speak up.

But with nearly everything else so far, I have been told to publicly hold my peace and bear record of what is happening all around me. (Online discussion seems to not be "public", for which I'm glad.)

As others have said, let me add a third witness: we must listen to and follow the Lord as events continue to unfold.
Ryan said…
I would like to confirm your witness as well. I haven't posted a comment here before but wanted you and others to know Tim, that I really enjoy your blog (as well as Denver's). I now look more carefully for the truths in all things and let the spirit take precedence over what I might think is right. I'm quicker to turn to The Lord for guidance and in gratitude for everything. I'm quicker to look for what I'm supposed to learn through my experiences. Although I wish I had a better mastery of the scriptures, Denver is directly responsible for my "reinvestment" in the scriptures/gospel and my relationship with Christ. Years ago I was struggling and on the verge of giving up on scripture study when in answer to serious prayers I was directed to his books. I received guidance and direct answers to my questions as well as a confirmation that what I was learning was true. I continue to carefully & humbly take the information to The Lord for confirmation and guidance. He has been so very kind, patience and loving in dealing with someone so slow (me). I thank you and those like you for doing what you do, you have played a huge roll in strengthening my relationship with my Savior.
Tim Malone said…
Julie: On the day of the Ephraim lecture, Carol was in Farr West for a family reunion. She knew how much I wanted to attend the lecture so she surprised me by renting a car for me to drive down to the lecture.

We have hotel reservations for both the Vegas and St George lectures. She may or may not attend the lectures with me. I hope she will. We have not worked out our differences with how we each feel about what Denver Snuffer is sharing, so we try to focus on the message of Christ. Of course, that's the subject of Denver's next lecture so I'm really hoping she will feel comfortable with attending.
Ham said…
Wherefore, I will that all men shall repent, for all are under sin, except those which I have reserved unto myself, holy men that ye know not of. D&C 49:8
Jim Jones said…
Not to be too mean spirited, but I actually do hope that Tim loses his membership, and sadly many others here also. Frankly, Tim's seemingly contrite declaration of his faithfulness to the Church appears to me to be quite disingenuous in light of his declaration and criticism of the Church for its action regarding Denver. I'm a great believer in personal revelation - the operative word being personal. What I see here is the same old tired form of apostasy that we have seem for multiple millennia and especially since the restoration. THIS is the day which tests our obedience. How many of us here are totally faithful to the counsels given by past and present prophets? Are we diligent with meaningful personal and family prayer, FHE, scripture study, and teaching our children. Are we faithful home teachers, missionaries, temple attenders, fellowshippers, and friend shippers? Are we out of debt, living within our means, temporarily prepared with food and finance. Do we truly magnify our callings and fully sustain and support our local leaders? Carefully avoid all forms of pornography and other unseemly entertainment? Keep the Word of Wisdom in all regards and are physically fit? Full tithe payers, fast and pay fast offerings? Faithfully attend all of our meetings? I suspect that if we all were following the prophets we wouldn't need Denver Snuffer to lead the Second Comforter to us - He would find us on His own. Without obedience all the following covenants are meaningless. And you say we need a 16th prophet? Let that 16th prophet be ourselves for ourselves. Tim, I am sad for you. Don't let the adversary win this one.
johnD said…
Jim Jones,
WOW, if all members of the church were as un Christ like as you, I'd volunteer my membership in the church and run! Your laundry list is void of Christ, which is the message. And I can honestly say yes to all of your list, but without Christ its meaningless!
sfort said…
Jim,

Yes I am a good Israelite and follow Moses every jot and tittle. Thanks for thinking of us.
Mike said…
In regards to your interest in the question of prophets being called from outside the priestly leadership, here is one precedent established by the Book of Mormon. There are, of course, others. But it clearly lays out a point in history in which prophets were called directly from heaven to go to the people, bypassing the leadership of the churches, who then conspired in their chagrin to protect the men who murdered these prophets.


3 Nephi 6:20-29
20 And there began to be men inspired from heaven and sent forth, standing among the people in all the land, preaching and testifying boldly of the sins and iniquities of the people, and testifying unto them concerning the redemption which the Lord would make for his people, or in other words, the resurrection of Christ; and they did testify boldly of his death and sufferings.

21 Now there were many of the people who were exceedingly angry because of those who testified of these things; and those who were angry were chiefly the chief judges, and they who had been high priests and lawyers; yea, all those who were lawyers were angry with those who testified of these things.

22 Now there was no lawyer nor judge nor high priest that could have power to condemn any one to death save their condemnation was signed by the governor of the land.

23 Now there were many of those who testified of the things pertaining to Christ who testified boldly, who were taken and put to death secretly by the judges, that the knowledge of their death came not unto the governor of the land until after their death.

24 Now behold, this was contrary to the laws of the land, that any man should be put to death except they had power from the governor of the land—

25 Therefore a complaint came up unto the land of Zarahemla, to the governor of the land, against these judges who had condemned the prophets of the Lord unto death, not according to the law.

26 Now it came to pass that they were taken and brought up before the judge, to be judged of the crime which they had done, according to the law which had been given by the people.

27 Now it came to pass that those judges had many friends and kindreds; and the remainder, yea, even almost all the lawyers and the high priests, did gather themselves together, and unite with the kindreds of those judges who were to be tried according to the law.

28 And they did enter into a covenant one with another, yea, even into that covenant which was given by them of old, which covenant was given and administered by the devil, to combine against all righteousness.

29 Therefore they did combine against the people of the Lord, and enter into a covenant to destroy them, and to deliver those who were guilty of murder from the grasp of justice, which was about to be administered according to the law.


The scriptures are filled with examples of prophets not only called from without the hierarchy, but sent from heaven to call the hierarchal leaders to repent of their wickedness. It's such a recurring theme that it should be rather hard to miss. It blows my mind that people who claim to study the scriptures are offended by the notion that there could be "non-hierarchal" prophets today.
Jim Jones said…
I didn't expect to win friends with my post. Nor was the "list" intended to be judgmental, but only to point out that very few, if any of us (yes, including me), can say we have mastered the counsel we have already been given. I obviously haven't mastered political correctness. However, I have a granddaughter who appears to be succumbing to Kate Kelly and my wife's family was RLDS. The good friend who introduced me to the Church and baptized me now thinks he's the One Mighty and Strong. All I'm saying is that we have enough to do to pound in the stakes of Zion through-out the world to prepare the world for the return of the Savior, without counseling those who the Lord has called to lead the work. I'm all for discussion and I immensely valued most of Denver Snuffer's books. But many of the posts in this thread prove my point. This is the time when the very elect will be deceived by those who merely intend to steady the ark. sfort, clever response, but I think you know the test of obedience isn't whether we keep the commandments, for none of us do. Rather, will we bow to the will of the Lord. If the Brethren asked me to take down a blog, I would take that as a test of obedience. And, O that ye would listen unto the word of his commands, and let not this pride of your hearts destroy your souls!" Jacob 2:16.
Eric said…
Of course Tim will insist that we not follow him, and he won't blame us for any adverse outcome. He'll take full responsibility for his choices (good or bad).

However, should this be our message? "Tim, you go ahead and keep doing those things that could get you excommunicated. Oh, by the way, I myself (fortunately) have a different path, one that keeps me safely away from disciplinary action. Good luck!"

"We will boo your opponents and walk with you to the cliff and watch you jump off. We are not you, so we don't absolutely know for sure if you'll fly and soar, or crash and burn. But as for us -- we will carefully climb down; we're not jumping with you."

Is this true unity?

I say unto you, let every man esteem his brother as himself. For what man among you having twelve sons, and is no respecter of them, and they serve him obediently, and he saith unto the one: Be thou clothed in robes [current temple recommend] and sit thou here; and to the other: Be thou clothed in rags [excommunication] and sit thou there—and looketh upon his sons and saith I am just? Behold, this I have given unto you as a parable, and it is even as I am. I say unto you, be one; and if ye are not one ye are not mine. (D&C 38:25-7)

I am in Tim's ward and serve with his stake presidency, so I'm probably closer to the situation than anyone else here. People (including my daughter) come up to me privately asking about Tim. Now, we could brush them all off with a wave of our hand, thinking, "Aw, they're all spiritually weak." However:

Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge . . . and their conscience being weak is defiled. . . . But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak. . . . And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ. (1 Corinthians 8:7, 9, 11-2)
hermanaclark said…
Do you mean that I have read, listen to, and pray about everyone outside of the hierarchy of the church who claims to have a message of truth and repentance and coming unto Christ? Ain't nobody got time for that.
tomirvine999 said…
Tim,

I have empathy for you. The Lord has given me my own errand...

Tom
Annalea said…
Of course not. lol

The Book of Mormon shows pretty clearly that we must pray always. When we live that way, we are able to recognize truth when we encounter it because we are listening to the Holy Spirit. The Lord continuously offers us knowledge and light that will bring us back to Him. It's our job to keep an open heart & mind and recognize messages from Him, whatever form they take.
Sarah said…
Tim, I am so glad to see the blog back up. Particularly this post. You said it better than I ever could.
Eric said…
Note that I do include myself in the questionable group ("we").

Although we are all Tim's friend, I also know his wife personally.

On Sunday, she talked to me about related things.

So I kind of wonder if the questions to this group in my last couple posts are what she inwardly asks/thinks of me.

Since I have a love and concern for both of them, it now makes me wonder what the proper course of action is.

I am supportive of Tim, but am I being equally supportive of her?

Or in other words, what counsel does one give to the spouse of someone who is doing something that the spouse thinks is self-destructive?
sfort said…
Thanks for acknowledging, but you missed my point. It is the works driven nature that sabotages all the Lord tried to accomplish with the restoration and with his record of the visit to the Nephites. When we focus only on the works and the outward appearance for the submitting to counsel sake, the spiritual manifestations seize. We are not saved by obeying man with every performance known to mankind. It is following the spirit exactly that the Lord begins to trust, not whether we follow with every detail what man offers. The Spirit is left out of your scenario. We are all on a journey and to wish that Tim gets his come-uppance is neither Christian nor filled with the Spirit. It is the "outward appearance" aspect that precludes our visiting the Lord at the veil. Thank you for your journey.
sfort said…
You are very welcome Tim. Most leaders, local and general all want to do the right thing. Sometimes it isn't the case, but generally it is. The problem isn't with the local leaders. They follow instructions from the Church handbook, which they pay obesiance to. It is the structure that is flawed that causes a ripple effect across the church. There are many good men following flawed structure. Therefore, no judgment is forthcoming to them. But to not go outside this structure displays spiritual immaturity, since all are important to the Lord and each journey is unique to us. Therefore judgment from the Church should be characteristic of that. The stamp of apostasy is indeed institutional. The book, "So You Don't Want To Go To Church Anymore" is a great representation of the "protecting the institution at all cost" concept. The book is beautifully written with dialogue by a man named John, who is thought to represent John the Beloved, but no one knows. The individual salvation must come before group salvation. Follow the brethren is group salvation. We all know the immense pressure upon your actions day by day and the careful mental process you have to go through to walk this fine line. May we all have love for one another
Eric said…
Reminds me of the following dig against science in general: “The number of rational hypotheses that can explain any given phenomenon is infinite. . . . If the purpose of scientific method is to select from among a multitude of hypotheses, and if the number of hypotheses grows faster than experimental method can handle, then it is clear that all hypotheses can never be tested. If all hypotheses cannot be tested, then the results of any experiment are inconclusive and the entire scientific method falls short of its goal of establishing proven knowledge” (Robert Pirsig, ZAMM, 100).

I was praying one day and the following words came into my mind: "All knowledge is a gift from God."

Yes, how blessed are all of us to be able to receive personal revelation, knowledge, directly from God!

We don't have to study every single religious text on Earth before making a decision on a religion.

We don't have to investigate the claims of every single person on the Internet who claims they have met the Savior (there are many).

Once we know the truth, we are freed from need to explore other hypotheses and options.
Tim Malone said…
Las Vegas Lecture

Date: Friday, July 25, 2014
Time: 9:30 a.m.
Place: Fiesta Henderson Hotel & Casino
777 West Lake Mead Parkway
Henderson, NV 89015
Seats: Cancun Room A/B, seats 150

St. George Lecture

Date: Saturday, July 26, 2014
Time: 9:30 a.m.
Place: Lexington Hotel and Conference Center
850 Bluff Street
St. George, UT 84770
Seats: Ballroom, seats 275

Source: http://denversnuffer.blogspot.com/2014/07/las-vegas-and-st-george.html
hermanaclark said…
I actually did take the time to read the full text of Denver's visit to my town. He said that his message wasn't for me: the correlated member, the sheep, the ones that are satisfied with the narrative. Well, I know a prophet who has a message to share that IS for everyone. I know a prophet who loves me and loves my family and prays for us daily. His name is Tommy Monson and he has taught me to seek The Lord's face too.

I may not have as much time as I want to delve into the mysteries, but I'll tell you what I did have time for last week. I had time to drive 60 minutes roundtrip to the furthest reaches of my ward boundaries on a dirt road to visit a woman whose mother, in another state, called to ask me to go check on her daughter because she feared she was suicidal. I had time to help a another sister move because her divorce is final and she has find a cheaper place to live for herself and her five kids. I had time to sweep dog poop for four hours because another sister is suffering with depression and allowed her dogs to use the whole house as a litter box.

As I served my sisters, I looked in each of their faces and I saw the face of Jesus. I saw Him who served and saved us all. Not because I've read Snuffer books, not because I was smart enough to follow Tim's blog, but because I served.

So I hope when Denver reaches that high-horse heaven and he sees me down below in my lower echelon, I hope that he has the charity to come down and do a little missonary work and give me another chance with his only-for-the-special-people message, because I was busy doing other things.
3 Nephi 13:1-4/Matthew 6:1-4. Be careful that you have not just given yourself the reward.
Donald said…
Hope to see you there. :)
Annalea said…
What would I tell the spouse of someone that spouse believes is doing something self-destructive?

Provided it's not immediately physically dangerous or illegal (I.e. Requiring immediate legal or physical intervention.)

1) Do you love your spouse more than your cherish your fears? Fear is the enemy, and God NEVER works through fear.

If the answer to #1 is yes, then it's time to lay those fears down, because exploring whatever it is that the other spouse is learning about is vital.

2) Pray. Immerse yourself in scripture. And pray more.

3) Find God, for yourself. For real. So that you have the fruits & gifts of the spirit in your life. So that you have a living, breathing connection with Heaven that informs your every day, your every thought, word & deed.
Eric said…
". . . the testimony [martyria] of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy" (Revelation 19:10).

Those mercurial KJV translators took martyria and translated it into different English words: witness (15x), testimony (14x), record (7x), report (1x).

"We speak that we do know, and testify [martyreō] that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness [martyria]" (John 3:11).

"And he that saw it bare record [martyreō], and his record [martyria] is true" (John 19:35).

Out of curiosity, I wonder if anyone subscribes to this modern translation, which defines prophets a little more exclusively: The eyewitness of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy . . .
Eric said…
"Crazy righteous" . . . cool.

Just look at the curriculum.

Okay, finished the homework assignment. Being an optimist, I'd have to say that . . . it's better than nothing! :)

Seminary:

Those members of the Church who devote themselves wholly to righteousness, living by every word that proceedeth forth from the mouth of God, make their calling and election sure. That is, they receive the more sure word of prophecy, which means that the Lord seals their exaltation upon them while they are yet in this life. (Bruce R. McConkie, as quoted in Doctrine and Covenants and Church History Seminary Teacher Manual, Lesson 138)

Institute:

Jesus promises the saints that they can have, here and now in this life, the following: (1) The gift and constant companionship of the Holy Ghost . . . the revelation and the sanctifying power which alone will prepare men for the companionship of gods and angels hereafter; (2) Personal visitations from the Second Comforter, the Lord Jesus Christ himself, . . . and (3) God the Father . . . shall visit man in person, take up his abode with him, as it were, and reveal to him all the hidden mysteries of his kingdom. (Bruce R. McConkie, as quoted in New Testament Teacher Resource Manual, John 13-17)

Gospel Doctrine:

Partake of the divine nature and strive to make your calling and election sure. (New Testament: Gospel Doctrine Teacher’s Manual, Lesson 43)

Melchizedek Priesthood / Relief Society:

In the revelation on priesthood, . . . the Lord says that the Melchizedek Priesthood is everlasting; that it administers the gospel, is found in the true church in all generations, and holds the keys of the knowledge of God. He says that it enables the Lord’s people to be sanctified, to see the face of God, and to enter into the rest of the Lord, “which rest is the fulness of his glory.” (See D&C 84:17–24.) (Teachings of Joseph Fielding Smith, 164)

Recent General Conferences (more subtle):

The example in the Book of Mormon of “many, exceedingly great many” (Alma 13:12) in the ancient Church who were pure and spotless before God is a source of encouragement and comfort to me. I suspect those members of the ancient Church were ordinary men and women just like you and me. These individuals . . . “were made pure and entered into the rest of the Lord their God” (v. 12). And these principles and this process of spiritual progress apply to each of us equally and always. (David A. Bednar, "Clean Hands and a Pure Heart," October 2007)

These things I declare to you with the conviction Peter called the “more sure word of prophecy.” What was once a tiny seed of belief for me has grown into the tree of life (Jeffrey R. Holland, "Lord, I Believe," April 2013)
Boo said…
I will be there. If you plan to go make your hotel reservations for St George now .There are other conventions in town and I had to try 3 different places before I could find a vacancy. The other piece of advice is get to the Las Vegas venue early if you want a seat. Last time there were probably 500 people in attendance. Hope to see you all there. Save me a seat. Boo
Good Will said…
Sister Clark,

I wonder if you understand Snuffer's message when he states that he is not speaking to those who are "satisfied" with what they have. He is not being condescending at all.

I just sat through a week of training for AP chemistry teachers. (I am NOT one of them...yet.) Most of what I heard went completely over my head. I wasn't even capable of assessing whether I was hearing "truth" (but I suspect I was) because I didn't even understand the subject matter well enough to have a rational basis upon which to form an opinion. It was all "gobbledigook" to me! Ever been there?

Those people "summoned" to Snuffer's discourse have "seen the light" regarding their current state. They know what they have (and don't have) and see definite incongruence and truths that are not being addressed by the Church that they believe are essential. They are not, for the most part, weary of well-doing. They want more. (Is that so bad?) They want to experience more. Like Nephi, they want to see and hear the same things that their "father Lehi" saw and heard. They want to "know" for themselves.

That seems to be a fairly "scriptural" proposition, does it not?

Is the Church offering that?

Not from my point of view. The Church offers less and less. It is becoming increasingly more restrictive and compulsive in administration, while simultaneously more vacuous and repetitive in instruction. We are consequently going in circles, not "pressing forward" as a Church.

If you're satisfied with what you have, that's fine! (What I'm about to say is not meant to be condescending; it is just a fact.) Children who are happy riding tricycles (and not bicycles) are not ready for bicycles. And some children, thinking they are ready for bicycles -- when they're not -- try to ride them anyway...and fail. It's life. That's the way it works. Those who "press forward" do so because they want to...because they can. Those who don't...don't.

No compulsion. No put-downs. No judgements. We are all growing at our own pace. And that is good.

Jesus said "My sheep hear my voice". We hear Him when we're ready to hear Him.

After all we can do.
tomirvine999 said…
“Individual members of the Church, the major strides which must be made by the Church will fall upon the major strides to be made by us as individuals. We have paused on some plateaus long enough. Let us resume to journey forward and upward.”

President Spencer W. Kimball
April 1, 1979
hermanaclark said…
What part of that was not condescending?

If Denver Snuffer's message was truly about coming unto Christ, he would still have his church membership and Tim wouldn't have a blog.


(Rides away on her trike.)
Good Will said…
Sister Clark,

I don't follow your reasoning.

Both Denver and Tim both advocate coming unto Christ and neither has advocated leaving the LDS Church. In fact, both have been strong supporters of it. (One still is.)

I was a strong supporter of the LDS Church, too, until "they" excommunicated me a few months ago for apostasy. They claimed I taught false doctrine. What did I teach that was false? They wouldn't say. But they used the fact that I agreed with Denver Snuffer -- an "apostate" they "created" -- as "evidence" that I, too, must be an apostate. And so I was "out"!

"Surely thou art one of them: for...thy speech agreeth thereto."

What did Denver teach that was false?

To my "ear", Denver speaks the truth. Does that make the LDS Church "false"? No. Must one abandon "milk" -- or claim it is "bad" -- in order to eat "meat"? No.

Eat "meat" when you're ready!

The LDS Church leadership are now unjustly persecuting and maligning those who refuse to keep quiet about what they know to be true about the Church (its doctrine, history, etc.) and about God (His doings, witnesses to us, etc.). They (the leadership) are demanding allegiance to men as if "following" any man is equivalent to following God. (It is not and never has been.)

The whole "LDS thing" is rapidly devolving into idol worship -- worship of men, temples, programs, etc. Church leaders, convinced that their own "salvation" depends upon their own slavish devotion to and deference shown to men (but only toward those men, ironically, who are higher up the perceived "pecking order" of "priesthood authority") actually use the threat of withdrawing that "salvation" from others to coerce and compel compliance with their wishes. Their will and words, in effect, must now be followed with the same deference and devotion that one would show to Christ Himself.

Or else.

One who truly "has" priesthood, by contrast, says "Follow God. Come unto Christ." He doesn't interject himself (or anyone else) unnecessarily into that relationship...because he knows that higher priesthood itself is only "obtained" by gaining knowledge from God directly, in association with Him! (It cannot be conferred by the laying on of hands by mere men alone.) Anything else is certainly less, with no real "power" to speak of.

Priesthood is not about power and control. It is about helping others connect with God. It is the ability to serve others as directed by God. And, for some, it is the responsibility to open the doors to the chapel on Sundays, to pay the power bills, and to organize who does what (by invitation only). For others, it is the "authority" to perform ordinances. Other than that, there's not much "priesthood" in the LDS Church nowadays. Very few (if any) in the Church are actually communing with God (beyond receiving the influence of His Holy Spirit).

For those who wish to (or who have) come unto Christ in the flesh, the LDS Church is a fairly unwelcoming place nowadays, unfortunately.
Tim Malone said…
Note: The Ephraim talk is now online for free download at Scribd : http://www.scribd.com/doc/233544493/Ephriam-Transcript-Christ. How can anyone claim this man is teaching false doctrine? I still can’t believe the church cast him out. If you have trouble getting the lecture, let me know. I have it in both text, PDF and Audio. I am studying it this weekend. I also have all the previous talks in the same format. You should buy the audio files from Doug at http://publishinghope.info
Tim Malone said…
Faith Comes By Hearing The Word of God

"If you will receive it, faith in Him comes by hearing the word of God. Not by a pretender, not by someone guessing, not by someone offering up their theory of how the scriptures ought to be understood. Faith does not come by hearkening to someone citing you a bibliography. Faith comes only by hearing the word of God delivered as He would have it delivered, by whomever it is that He may choose to deliver it.

Receive God's Word From Someone He Sends

"If you receive God’s word sent by someone He sends, then you might have faith, and that too in the Son of God. Then you also might receive Him. But if you will not, if you will harden your hearts, if you will blind your minds, if you will not receive what He offers from His mouth in your day, then you do not have faith in Him. You will fall short of that faith required to become His son and His daughter.

Either I Am a Liar, or I Have Been Sent

It is that way, it has always been that way, it will always be that way. There is no other test. Therefore, either I am a liar and you ought to forget everything I've said, or I have been sent by someone greater than I am. If I have been sent and you reject and quibble over the things I declare to you, it is at your peril!

It Requires a Sacrifice to Do What I Am Doing

"It ought to be that way. I ought to be damned if I'm a pretender, and I ought to be damned and rejected by God if I'm saying things about which I know nothing! But I bear witness to you I know what I'm talking about. I have no reason to lie to you. I have no reason to pay to reserve a place to speak to you, and ask nothing of you but to listen. It requires a sacrifice to do what I am doing.

I Am Come As A Second Witness

"I have no other reason to do this than to tell you the truth. Joseph Smith testified to these things and I am come as a second witness. Therefore you now have two proclaiming the same doctrine. He (Christ) was in the world and the world was made by Him, and the world knew Him not. Why did the world not know Him? The world did not know Him for the same reason people would not know a messenger when one is sent today."

Denver Snuffer, Ephraim lecture, pp. 49-50
sfort said…
Tim,

I was there. These words lead to Christ. They are testimony to our mission. I see your journey close to Denvers if you will understand completely what you are to do.
Tim Malone said…
Do Not Falsely Accuse Me

"This is the seventh of ten talks I will give. In these I bear testimony as a witness to the truth. I would not blame you for thinking I am doing this to get noticed. That is not true, but it is the obvious thing to accuse. Unless, of course, what I declare to you is Truth and is Light. If I am telling the truth, then how you respond is important. I would ask you, for your own sake, to not falsely accuse me.

You Do Not Need to Like Me

"You do not need to respond to me. You do not need to like me. You do not ever need to mention my name again. But if what I am saying is the truth, you need to respond to it. This is between you and God, not you and me.

I Am Not Going To Be Your Leader

"You need to choose how you will live your life from this day forward. The Lord is coming to judge the quick and the dead. You need to get right with Him. I am not going to be your leader. I am not going to form a church. I am not going to do that because it would not work anyway. But you can be healed, you can come to the Lord, and you can live your life differently. Look at the same scriptures in a new light and let His Spirit fill you and make a difference in the lives of others.

I Do Not Want You To Rely On Me

"I do not trust myself to innovate. I will only say what I have been told. I fear my weakness, and my inadequacy. I fear offering up my own ideas. I do not want you to rely on me. Do not do that, when I am asking you not to do so. You rely on Him.

He Is Not Going to Make it Easy For You

"Just remember, when He speaks, I have described how He came! He is not going to do it differently. He is not going to make it easy for you. He is not going to tell you: “I'm going to put my thumb print on this, and here's the hall pass. Who wants the hall pass?” Nor is He going to declare about some leader: “He's got the hall pass! Follow him! He can never lead you astray! And were he to do so, I will remove him!”

Beware of Lies and False Doctrines From Institutions

"These are lies and false doctrine offered by institutions who claim to possess keys of salvation. They claim God has finished His work, given His authority to men, and therefore they have the power to redeem you.

I Offer You No Such Pretended Keys

"I offer to save you using no such pretended keys. I only offer you the Lord. I ask you to give heed to Him. I will tell you no man can be trusted for all men are weak. Even Peter, the night of the Lord's trial, was a broken reed. If you put your weight on that, it would pierce your hand. That is what men are, but not who our Lord is, for His course is straight. He does not even cast a shadow to the right or left, for His course is true."

Denver Snuffer, Ephraim Lecture, pp.56-57
Tim Malone said…
I Have Seen Him. I Know He Lives.

"I bear witness of Christ. I have seen Him! I know He lives! I know He is coming in judgment, and I know that before His coming, He has wanted some things to be declared. I have been as faithful as I can be in declaring the things asked of me. I sense keenly my own inadequacy. I beg you to overlook all that and not let me become a stumbling block. Look at the scriptures, look at the words of Christ, look at the explanations we got from Joseph, look at the things that are true, and go to Him in faith believing."

Denver Snuffer, Ephraim Lecture, p. 75

I attended the Ephraim lecture in person. I purchased and listened to the CDs of the lecture earlier this week. I have read the lecture this evening. I feel the same. This man is a servant of the Lord, sent to us with a message for us to ponder, contemplate, hear and to which we need to respond. There are invitations in this message, mainly to overcome our own inadequacies and limitations of our own lack of faith. It will take courage to respond to the invitations contained in this message. Such responses may cost us dearly. But they are clearly from the Lord, at least in my mind, and not from man. God bless.
Michael C. said…
The scripture and TPJS/WJS citations in the transcript have been indexed at https://ref.erenc.es/ds/talks/ephraim/.
noche32 said…
How do you reconcile what Jesus said here in Mark chapter 3?

24 And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.
25 And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.

That is what is happening with Snuffer and the LDS faith. Let me just say I ask this in full humility and no judgement whatsoever.
Annalea said…
That is really interesting, TedC. Thank you for sharing it.

I would ask how you define "being good". Is it being able to check off the boxes on a list of do's and don't's assigned by the church policy of our day, or is it in constantly pursuing greater obedience to the Lord in everything He asks us to do, moment by moment?

The Way has never been easy . . . but it will be worth it.

If we are walking in total obedience to Jesus Christ, He can take care of the rest. Walking in obedience may very well include socking away food storage and having a temple recommend, if that is what He needs us to do. But He may tell someone else to buy land and build a large home. Or take out loans and study their guts out to learn a certain skill set. Or something else, entirely. Abraham set the pattern of obedience . . . but we are not all asked to bind our children to altars.

Water into wine. Food to feed 5,000 from a few loaves and fishes. Healings, revelation, protection, and all the rest. We need to stop listening to the good ideas of mortals and find out what the Lord Jesus Christ asks us each, individually, to do, every day, even with every breath.

"The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit." ~John 3:8

The word translated "bloweth" in that verse means "breathes". The Holy Spirit is the breath of God, and it breathes new life into us each moment we choose to listen to and obey God.
tomirvine999 said…
TedC,

Does the Correlation Committee know about this?
sfort said…
Nice scenario; however it doesn't even come close to Skousen and Crowther. The half hour of silence is 21.5 years. When did the 7th seal open? It may be hard to take this as absolute when there will be no buying and selling coming, for span, 7 years peace in Israel, a temple built in Jerusalem, Crowther says there will be war between the Bear and Eagle, the eagle will be victor, we will be praised and then our internal society will break down. All this from the scriptures. I think these blogs should point to spiritual refinement which will help us to be ready for such events, but not look to someone's interpretation of a timeline. But thank you for your mega involvement.
Good Will said…
Do you guys even listen? The Lord will reveal these things.

Your "guesses" and "maybes" about future events are actually counter-productive. Do they lead you to Christ?

Nephi didn't "guess" about what his father saw. He saw what his father saw! If you wish to know as he did, you must do the same!
Nathan Shackelford said…
Luke 12:
51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:

52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.

53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
mm said…
indeed; the parents of the little LDS children who are going hungry now around the world cannot afford food storage--

I am skeptical about any EOTW scenarios taken from the bible; the Book of Mormon says very little about it--

Frankly, IF I have the $ to invest in food storage and other righteous saints do not, I don't think I will be blessed. And if they are in Guatemala (I have no hungry saints near me; most of the members in my area have more resources than I do)--


I don't think I will be counted as more righteous; I used to get 'into' this kind of thing; not any more--

not when I found out about the hungry LDS children--

what 'sins' are they paying for? What carelessness have they shown?

I think most EOTW talk is myopic and ethnocentric--

and there are LDS all over the world now--

and Godly Christians (and other religions)--

the idea that He cares only about *us* is repugnant.
mm said…
all from the bible; all from the bible, the great 'stumblingblock' to the gentiles--
Annalea said…
And yet, also the stepping stone to the First Vision . . .
mm said…
concerning the EOTW scenarios and who has read whom--

the parents of little LDS children who are starving to death are probably blessed not to have access to Crowther and Skoussen (just men)--

but I have a feeling they are spending more time praying for food for their children or a way to get it than worrying about what the Lord will reveal to a bunch of white people up north (all of those who are starving are in places far south of most of *us*)--

and they certainly don't know that they will need to go and hear Denver Snuffer's lectures or be locked out.

I think it's time for realism; are *we* thinking, we foolish gentiles, only of ourselves, or can be spare a piece of heart for members of the church who are trying to feed their children in South America, Central American, Southeast Asia and Africa--

or . . . the children who have no parents to feed them?

This is all so myopic. I think that Denver Snuffer is probably a very good man; he very well may be on a God-sent, unique, individual mission, but I can tell you that there are people "out here" who are struggling to get through each day who are FAR from where he is and who are already relying for every little thing from the Hand of God--

possibly those parents of hungry children and those little LDS orphans in Africa . . .

don't really need Denver Snuffer right now--

and those of us who pray for them all night long--

and do as much as we can--

already know that the Lord is there and that our culture is doomed--

forget about EOTW scenarios; a culture as selfish and self-absorbed as *ours* cannot go on much longer. We deserve it, until we get on our knees and cry for forgiveness for being so fat and foolish.

The High Priests in our ward spent the '4th' in the home and on the acreage of a very wealthy family in our ward, and they paddled around out on the lake in pontoon boats--

and had very nice food--and talked about light things--

well, not all the high priests; some were not well enough to attend--

Tell these people about Denver Snuffer, and you will get laughed at or mocked; tell them about the hungry LDS babies/children, and you will get complete scorn.

This is my world.
mm said…
I don't think the bible needs any excusing; it has dominated the book of Mormon for far too long--
noche32 said…
The scripture you quote does not address Christ's kingdom being divided against itself. That scripture refers to us the people not the kingdom. Christ is not going to tell the brethren one thing and Snuffer another. There is no middle ground here.
mm said…
I apologize for the anger (towards the bible, I guess) that is coming across in my post(s).
I do feel some anger, indignation, whatever. Reading the Book of Mormon every day for many decades, using it on a mission, always tied to the bible, I did not know the book. At all.

3 years ago I felt God telling me to stop reading the bible and focus on the Book of Mormon, but I had this large-print quad (bad eyesight, not young anymore--LOL!)--

with all the doodads in it, all those little letters, etc., etc.--
(the TG)--

and it still wasn't a 'book'--

but I kept on, and then about 4 months ago I started Smith's reading project--

and I saw for myself what a 'job' had been done on LDS for 180 years. If there has been a heinous conspiracy, that has been one. Works of darkness--

to cover up that book. I'm still trying to process the intense feeling of betrayal.

Interesting that a grandparent of mine about 50 years ago told me that that had happened (no details, nothing like Smith) and gave me a little warning. But I didn't have the context, the framework, to understand. My entire family was deceived, all my missionary companions, thousands of ward members from dozens of wards--

it was done so handily; it was done so incredibly well, with so much skill--

how many other things (in the world and church) have been stumblingblocks?

A person has to stop and take a deep breath and pray for the strength to go on.
Nathan Shackelford said…
You are absolutely correct, there is no middle ground.

What has Christ personally told you about His kingdom? What does the Holy Ghost testify to you? It really is a soul splitting experience, what is upon us (and yet, we must be one, wholly congruent). It appears as though we are experiencing just such an endgame sifting scenerio.

As an aside, how you define Christ's kingdom, would certainly influence your interpretation of the initial scripture. Christ's kingdom is not being divided.
Annalea said…
Thank you, mm. Your comments, in context, make perfect sense to me. (I wondered if you were referring to Daymon's stuff, since during my lifetime, the Book of Mormon has dominated the Bible pretty handily . . . except that not many folks are reading the Book of Mormon, either.)

To illustrate what Denver said so succinctly about the expression of virtue in one life not looking like the expression in another's, just over a year ago, I was prompted to mostly read the Bible. I participated in our family's daily Book of Mormon study at night, but my personal study was nearly all Bible . . . both New & Old Testaments each day.

As I read the Bible, using a few different translations, I learned two things that absolutely revolutionized my relationship with God, and pulled down two strongholds of unbelief in my life.

From the Old Testament, I learned that our God is powerful beyond all understanding, and He waits, patiently, eagerly, willingly, to step in and work mind-blowing miracles in our lives. The children of Israel believed He could, and even in their pouting and complaining, He did. (Water from the rock, manna & quail in the desert, etc.) He healed, He provided, He revealed, He protected. In crazy huge miracles. On nearly every page. He is no respecter of persons, and will do the same for us, if we don't prevent Him through unbelief.

From the New Testament, I learned Jesus' incredible love for us. I can't point to any specific passage . . . it just felt like the NT was a series of love-filled letters from the most devoted and tender-hearted and lion-hearted dearest friend ever. I saw Christ rescuing those completely unable to save themselves, all because they honestly and earnestly believed He could. And He did. His soul was full of beauty and love and kindness and forgiveness, even when His life was filled with poverty and rejection and hardship. (Apocrypha says he came from a long line of poor & hard-luck folk.)

The OT showed me His power, and His willingness to use it, even for the children of Israel in their rebellion and blindness. The NT showed me His love for the one, the lost, the hurt, the seeking.

I would encourage you to, when you have given your hurt and betrayal to Him and He has healed your soul, to take another look at the Bible (I love the New Living and Amplified Translations), and see what He can teach you from its pages. Jesus is the Healer, and the Great Teacher. He knows what you need, and He will supply your want. :)

Thank you for giving me so much more context. It's an honor. :)
Annalea said…
And yet, the kingdom IS the people. Without people, Christ has no kingdom of glory to present to His Father.
Julie said…
It's okay with me that there are multiple theories. I think the moment of panic I had earlier when I read TedC's comment was healthy: "oh crap, maybe I've only got a couple months before the world ends!" I fervently hope it's not true, and that we all have a bit more time, but I'm grateful for the wake-up call, no matter what form it takes.
sfort said…
Goodwill and others,

Please relax and read my comment in its entirety. If you read the parallelisim with my comment concerning TedC, it was not promoting the timeline. There have been so many scenarios of last day stuff that if you subscribe to these, you will miss the spiritual preparation and only focus on the temporal preparation. I think a deep breath is in order. Rely on the Baptism of Fire and the Spirit will teach you all things that ye must do. It is insignificant that you know the hour if you are prepared spiritually; and you will consequently be prepared temporally. The Horseshoe prophecy states that if we follow the leaders of the church we will be spared. This was John Taylor. How does this sit today? The Spirit must be the driver and then no fear will resound.

Goodwill, thank you however for your exhuberance.
Good Will said…
"Do you guys even listen?"

I'm sorry for that remark. (I tried to recall it immediately, but couldn't.) Please forgive my outburst.

I was in the act of reading Snuffer's Ephraim talk (and contemplating the personal implications thereof) and was startled to see talk here of "wars and rumors of wars"...as if any of that matters.

I still haven't finished my reading. Again, sorry.
noche32 said…
So who here thinks the Savior is going to give conflicting revelations and instructions to the brethren and Denver Snuffer? That would be dividing the kingdom against itself.....and the Savior has already stated that a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand. Again my tone is one of humility and not attacking whatsoever.....we all learn from each other.
johnD said…
noche32, that's kind of the point, whens the last time the brethren have stated they received a revelation from the Lord?
Sue said…
noche32, how do you reconcile Joseph ("ordinances must be kept in the very way God has appointed", TPJS 169) and Isa. 24:5 with the Brethern changing the ordinance of the temple endowment in 1990, eliminating the penalties which were a key part of Hebraic covenant theology?
noche32 said…
@Sue....I don't reconcile it. I have a lot of things not reconciled but that is my personal journey....I am just trying to understand how what I have asked could be reconciled by anyone......please explain.
Nathan Shackelford said…
I know a Father's love. It is compassion and charity that both the church (TM) and Snuffer are available. There is no conflict, although they represent two very different "destinations". They are dichotomous enough (and the consequence of that choice great enough) that you will only be able to reclaim one of the paths, not both. The conflict is within you, and your heart. Once that is resolved, and there is both peace and congruence, you will step forward in identity and relationship ... and really neither will matter.
Nathan Shackelford said…
...and remember, we don't reconcile ourselves to ANY man or organization, but to Christ.
Tim Malone said…
Amen. Well said, Nathan, well said. Thank you.
Annalea said…
mm, your world sounds a lot like mine. :(

One of the Denver Snuffer quotes that has continued to ring in my mind:

"Relieve the suffering of others. ***Relieve the suffering of others.***"
BBB said…
There are alot of good people on here and I know you all mean well but for people who claim to follow Christ and not to rely on the arm of flesh, hang on every word Denver Snuffer says, It seems to me that you guys do rely on Denver Snuffer quite alot.
noche32 said…
I understand we only reconcile ourselves to Christ......but no one seems to want to answer the questions directly concerning a kingdom being divided against itself. Again, Christ is not going to give different revelations and directions to the Brethren and then to Snuffer cause that would divide the kingdom against itself and thus it cannot stand.
Nathan Shackelford said…
@ BBB ... meeting a Spanish-speaking Englishman in South America, I wouldn't assume he is solely bilingual. One uses the tools available :)
johnD said…
noche32
If you are sincere, I strongly recommend you read the transcript from the DS talk in Ephraim. That will give you the answer to your question.
BBB said…
Sorry Nathan that is not what is going on here, people are relying on everything Denver says, People who rely on all sources, quote more than just Denver Snuffer. I for one actually like what Denver has to say but he is far from my only source, he is actually only one of very many.
Nathan Shackelford said…
@ BBB -- I have to agree. I understand what you are saying. It is a step. Denver is playing a specific role, for a specific "family". This particular family has some pretty "unique" qualities and attributes, and needed an individual who could / would walk a certain walk, speak a certain "language". The transition had to be offered, and be facilitated by someone who understood all these variables.

Unfortunately, some will still struggle, get caught, because of their inability to see beyond the messenger to the actual message. They have simply traded one "Moses" for another.

You are absolutely right, truth is truth, and available from many "sources," the most important being Heaven itself. By our fallen nature, individuals just tend to have challenges when it comes to drinking directly from "The" source.

Regardless of the vehicle, its just awesome to see the whole thing unfold ... a collective awakening!
johnD said…
After the DS Ephraim talk it can’t be said he’s just “another” voice or source. He is either the biggest fraud and apostate we have or will see in our lifetime, OR he is what he says, a prophet sent in our day to set things in order for the return of the Savior, you can’t have it both ways after Ephraim anymore. He’s claiming the Lord is not and has not been speaking to the brethren, that the Lord is speaking to him! His message is follow the Savior NOT any man, including him.
The answer to that claim can come from the Lord only, not from reason alone!
sfort said…
johnD,

I understand your enthusiasm for Denver. I too listen to his lectures and attend them as well. But he doesn't claim the prophet status, just that the Lord wants him to say unto us what he has delivered. He doesn't want the noteriety and wishes us not to think of him this way. Tim also is doing what the Lord wants him to do. "I would that we were all prophets". We all will do some amazing things coming soon. But the attention on the title is not one of them. There will also come one mighty and strong. Maybe we don't know yet just who this is, but it is more important we keep our eyes and ears open for truth, from whatever source. Thank you all for the interest in these things. You are awake!
johnD said…
sfort
I'm NOT enthusiastic about Denver's message! I'm just AFFRAID its true! And if you are claiming to have spent more time with the Lord than Joseph Smith, your claiming to be a prophet!
sfort said…
noche32,

When a kingdom is in disrepair, what non-earthly methods would you use to repair it? Prophets in times past did one thing: preach repentance. When the Nephites slackened after the Saviors interlude and the ancient Christain Church did the same, do we know the pains the Lord took to recover? There will be things done soon that you may not be able to explain. If you take the immovable stance that the current kingdom is not in disrepair, you will have resigned yourself that the Lord cannot do marvelous things. Seek for truth and do not get caught up in years of a belief system that cannot be changed. My heart goes out to your journey. Truth always comes out in front eventually.
sfort said…
Nothing to be afraid of. Denver has lived quite a lot longer in years than Joseph. Remember that Joseph's main action as stated by the Lord was to translate. The Saints are the ones that demanded more and the Lord gave it to them. Time is irrevelant as to whether or not one foreordained calling has precedence over another. Denver claims he was subborn and lacking; that is why the timeframe. Goodness will eminate from truth. It will be found in many obscure places. I understand your concerns, but cheer up and be glad. Many beautiful things are coming.
johnD said…
Well before the beautiful things, always comes the ugly!
I too have read his books and talks. I plan to attend Las Vegas and St. George to FEEL for myself! But again, I'm afraid I already know the answer. And I'm not afraid for myself as much as for others, I'm in good standing with the Lord, right now I'm just working some things sure!
sfort said…
I appreciate your thoughts johnD. Perhaps we will meet. Opportunities are always daunting. Faith will eschew the ugly things for sure. No one is looking forward to the mechanics of what is transpiring, but the end result is what is precious. Look to that. Thanks for your response.
mm said…
I just realized, Annalea (and I have appreciated your posts wherever I have found them)--

that as I was talking about my experience with the Book of Mormon and the Bible and the feeling of

24 Wherefore, the Lord commandeth you, when ye shall see these things come among you that ye shall awake to a sense of your awful situation, because of this secret combination which shall be among you;

(Ether 8)


"awfulness" that I have experienced, dismay, disappointment, a feeling of having been deceived--

combined with this:

57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written—

(section 84)

and the urgency I feel, and how mostly since I have felt that I need to bear my witness of the Book of Mormon and of the travesty that occurred with regards to it--

I have been patted and smiled at and indulged or ignored pointedly--

and you bore your testimony of the Bible in response to what I am feeling--

and, I admit, that waking up is painful (I woke up politically 35 plus years ago, and I have been awake to the problems of the corporate church for at least two decades)--

and not necessarily a 'happy, joy, joy' thing--

so I may seem a bit of a curmudgeon, and people don't want to hear--

but you bore your testimony of the Bible to me in response.

The irony is actually making me chuckle now. Thanks for lightening my day.

Before I served a mission I attended two non-LDS universities (BYU was my last visit before graduate school, and my only church college experience, and definitely the inferior experience with few exceptions)---

my experiences in grade school, junior high and high school were 'solo' Mormon--

and I spent so many decades trying to prove that *we* Mormons loved, adored, followed, read, studied the bible, so that people would not throw rotten things at me--

and now . . .

an ostensibly fellow Mormon, when I rise up in all the strength I have left to . . .

quaveringly say, "Read the Book of Mormon, please, please"--

bears her testimony of the Bible to me. I needed to laugh. Thank you.

Sometimes when we have an inner fire we need to quench it with some humor.

I know Jesus heals. I have not given up on Him. He has not given up on me. I hold His Hand day and night.
Annalea said…
Could you please define what you mean by your use of the terms "here", and "these people"?

Thanks! :)
johnD said…
sfort
I agree with what your saying, I've been waiting all my life for this time (56 yrs.) My PB says 4 different times I will help in making things ready for HIS return, its now looking sooner than later! :)
BBB said…
Annalea I'm not sure if you mean me or not but I do love Denver Snuffer's work, he is very learned and has opened my eyes to many things but I just believe he is one of many and if I am correct he doesnt really want a following, he wants us to rely and follow Christ through all sources.
Brian B said…
Tim,

I appreciate your bold witness, and I agree with everything you have eloquently stated. A couple of quotes come to mind about the current situation:

The Lord: “How long can rolling waters remain impure? What power shall stay the heavens? As well might man stretch forth his puny arm to stop the Missouri river in its decreed course, or to turn it up stream, as to hinder the Almighty from pouring down knowledge from heaven upon the heads of the Latter-day Saints.” (D&C 121:33)

Adam: “These are true messengers. I exhort you to give strict heed to their counsel and teachings, and they will lead you in the way of life and salvation.”

Stay true to the Spirit that is in you.

God Bless
BBB said…
I have to admit I am very uncomfortable with this statement as Joseph Smith being the one to restore and translate the gospel.
BBB said…
Thank you Nathan that is really what I am trying to say, lol
Tim Malone said…
I added this clarification to the original post this morning:

Update: There has been so much misunderstanding in regards to my declaration above, I feel the need to clarify. Note I did not proclaim this man was sent to be a prophet within the LDS church. In fact, I thought I made it especially clear he was sent from outside the hierarchy. I did NOT proclaim him to be an LDS prophet. I declared he was sent to us as a servant of the Lord with a message for all who would hear it.

The testimony of Jesus Christ is the spirit of prophecy, thus my declaration that he was / is a prophet. I stand by what I wrote. Please don’t add inference that the messenger / servant I refer to has anything to do with the LDS church hierarchy. He is not part of the institutional church. Members of the LDS Church vote on our prophets. The whole point of the post was / is that this man was sent by the Lord with a message. I, for one, am grateful for that message.
mkvcjoseph said…
In 1996 I summoned to a disciplinary council called to determine if I had apostatized, which was the accusation being alleged. Beforehand, I had determined that because, like so many other terms used by the church over the years, that have transpired since the restoration, to define doctrine, I felt that word too had been redefined to mean something entirely different than its original intent. After giving my thoughts on the subject, I asked the stake president to clarify the term apostasy in the context of the church. My understanding of the term was as follows: The term apostasy comes from the Greek word apostasia ("ἀποστασία") meaning defection, departure, revolt or rebellion. It has been described as "a willful falling away from, or rebellion against one's former belief. Then I asked him if my understanding of the church's definition was correct, i.e.. "to be out of harmony with current practices and teachings"? He said that was correct. Well then by logic, that means that in order to fit that definition, the doctrines of the church can and have changed. So to whom does the original intent of the word apply?
mkvcjoseph said…
Thought in passing, speaking of the Lectures on Faith, why did Heber J. Grant see fit to remove them from the then canon of scripture without the consent of the church? They were added to the D&C and excepted by vote of the church in conference. The Lectures were considered the doctrine and the revelations that followed were the covenants. See the D&C before 1921. I have my grandmother's copy which included the LOF.
mkvcjoseph said…
I think the context is milk vs meat, not honey.
mkvcjoseph said…
I think it was Joseph Smith, who said, that the truth tastes good to the soul. (para)
mkvcjoseph said…
bd, on July 6, 2014 at 12:19 pm said: I would use a different word, idolize, (nearly worship as infallible, God will not allow the prophet to lead the church astray, etc..) Consider the following way Joseph Smith viewed such extreme notions of obedience:
Because of these facts, and the apparent imperfections of men on whom God confers authority the question is sometimes asked, to what extent is obedience to those who hold the Priesthood required?
This is a very important question, and one, which should be understood by all Saints. In attempting to answer this question we would repeat, in short, what we have already written, that willing obedience to
the laws of God, administered by the Priesthood, is indispensable to salvation; but, we would further add, that a proper conservative to this power exists for the benefit of all, and none are required to
tamely and blindly submit to a man because he has a portion of the Priesthood. We have heard men who hold the priesthood remark, that they would do anything they were told to do by those who
presided over them, (even) even if they knew it was wrong: but such obedience as this is worse than folly to us; it is slavery in the extreme; and the man who would thus willingly degrade himself, should
not claim rank among intelligent beings, until he turns from his folly. A man of God, who seeks for the redemption of his fellows, would despise the idea of seeing another become his slave, who had an equal
right with himself to the favour of God; he would rather see him stand by his side, a sworn enemy to wrong, so long as there was place found for it among men. Others, in the extreme exercise of their almighty (!) authority, have taught that such obedience was necessary, and that no matter what the Saints were told to do by their Presidents, they should do it without questions. When the Elders of Israel will so far indulge in these extreme notions of obedience, as to teach them to the people, it is generally because they have it in their hearts to do wrong themselves and wish to pave the way to accomplish that wrong; or else because they have done wrong, and wish to use the cloak of
their authority to cover it with, lest is should be discovered by their superiors, (God or whom ever we are accountable) who would require an atonement at their hands.
sfort said…
He said it is "delicious"
Eric said…
One advantage of the English Book of Mormon is that is the method of translation was better.

As posted elsewhere, in the KJV N.T., "faith" pistis = "belief."

In the KJV N.T., "Holy Ghost" Hagios Pneuma = "Holy Spirit." (This equivalency is confirmed by latter-day scripture: Alma 11:44, D&C 53:3, D&C 55:1, D&C 76:52).

In the KJV N.T., when we see "chosen," it is the same word as "elect" eklektos (but not vice versa).

It would have been nicer if the KJV translators were consistent in their word choices.
boo said…
Tim I think you are exactly correct. I, like others ,analogize his task to that of Samuel the Lamanite or Lehi . Both served as true messengers outside the existing hierarchy even though there were other recognized prophets at work simultaneously ( Nephi and Jeremiah). Certainly so far as we know neither Samuel of Lehi tried to set up their own church or organization. They delivered their divinely commissioned message and moved on as directed by the Lord. Neither was a "threat" to the existing hierarchy except to the extent that truth is considered dangerous
Bryan said…
What about the three years' warning from God's servant/prophet proceeding the attack from "Assyria" to America (from Isaiah 20)? When was the warning? Who is the servant?
mkvcjoseph said…
As Charles Penrose once said when ask about restoring the method of ordination to the priesthood vs ordination to an office in the church, "why if we do that, they'll have the same authority that we have" Maybe it has something to do with pride and control eh?
Donald said…
Some would say our Lord came with no particular bona fides or status....no particular standing or status....outside the institutional hierarchy of His day. Among other things he was a simple carpenter. fwiw
sfort said…
There is a book called the Harbinger that addresses dual prophecies of Isaiah. Isaiah 9:10-11 talks about judgements with the initial attack from Assyria. Israel in their arrogance said, "We will rebuild, we will make it stronger. That is exactly what happened on 9/11. We said the same thing. Now you have to add the years from the first attack until the sweeping of the nation of Israel and that will give you the time of the attack forthcoming in years from the first warning of 9/11. Isaiah Chapter 9 is our judgement.
mkvcjoseph said…
Tim, I see your pain and dilemma and wonder how many remember George W. Pace. He was a religion professor at BYU some years ago, and wrote, what I consider to be a great book, on a similar subject, even though it was small as to the number of pages. In it he admonished the reader to "come to know Christ" on a personal level. The book soon got him in hot water with the brethren as some college students had misinterpreted his teachings to mean that one should pray to Christ, which was never his intent, nor was it taught in the book. In the end he was chastised in public, at the BYU Tuesday devotional, by Bruce R. McConkie. The book was called "What it Means to Know Christ". In it he endeavored to teach how to accomplish that all important task. I started me on what I called "my Pace project", a work still on progress. And he even very strongly advocated the position of the brethren and the importance of sustaining them. In the end, however he did as the brethren required of him, i.e.., retract the book from print. They had determined the basic premise found therein, false doctrine. The doctrinal counsel given by them was "follow the brethren". The book was not on the correlated reading list. This even though one of the 12 came the following week, in his office at BYU privately and apologized for the actions of Bro. McConkie, saying the quorum had to show the appearance of harmony. I am pretty sure the visitor was Boyd K. Packard. Deseret Book put it on the junk book table and sold all copies for pennies on the dollar. Then soon it could not be found at all, except at some used book stores or websites. Brother Pace possesses one of the sweeties spirits I have ever known and is kind to a fault. He also has 12 children. One of those children was in the audience at the time, while preparing for his mission at the MTC. Not sure his final status but he did all he could to remain in the church. Bro Pace never lashed out or probably ever commented on what had happened but I know it broke his heart. He loved/loves the church and the brethren.
mkvcjoseph said…
Good Will, on July 11, 2014 at 8:45 am said: This is exactly the same doctrine that is taught by the Catholic church, i.e. infallibility of the pope, for he is the Vicar of Christ on the earth, namely His spokesman and the only one who can speak with or for God. Why is that any different than current LDS practices and teachings.? It seems that almost all organized groups/churches have the same mantra.
Tim Malone said…
It is a sad chapter in our history:

http://latterdaycommentary.com/2008/10/22/public-rebuke-from-an-apostle/
Tim Malone said…
I bought the book on someone else's recommendation, scanned it and put it on the shelf for later reading. You've got me looking at it again. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.
mkvcjoseph said…
" I had more scriptural proof to discourage the Lord from asking that I do any of this stuff. I argued with Him! And the Lord has explained to me, using the scriptures, the things I now declare to you.I am reminded of the "The account of Jacob wrestling with God/an angel is a story found in the Book of Genesis, and referenced elsewhere such as Genesis 35:1-7 and Hosea chapter 12. The account includes the renaming of Jacob as "Israel", literally "He who struggles with God." It's correct principle.
Jared said…
Intrigued and captivated as always by Tim and his expressions and by the many viewer comments. This seems to be the watershed post for Denver like minded thinking folk to come out and align with greater vigor. I love that you love our Savior and desire to follow and do his will. As I sit hear in the wee hours of the night and write--I am flooded with many many marvelous and miraculous and sacred experiences I have had as a Orthodox follower in the restored Church of Jesus Christ. I know something of precious and sacred experiences in the holy temple. I have been a participant/witness to many miracles through the holy melchezideck priesthood. I know something of having the veil thinned and being able to see. I felt incredible joy and my heart burn in the presence of Jesus. I know something of visions in the day and night. I have seen in vision our merciful Savior embrace my father (who struggled mightily in mortality ) as he departed this earth. I have been given profound witnesses of the Lord's modern-day prophets and apostles. When I have not trifled with their words but have an open mind and heart and ears and have hearkened unto their voice The result has brought me all the closer to my Savior Jesus Christ. I have Served a mission and have had multiple investigators administered by by angels. I know something of the impressions of the Holy Spirit and hearing the words of Jesus through the Holy Spirit. I have had it revealed to me through the Power of the Holy Ghost through many glorious weeping moments that Jesus is the Christ. I know something of evil and opposition and the efficacy of the priesthood to cast it out. I know something of hearing heavenly choirs in the early sacred waking hours in the morning. I know something of the efficacy and validity of the keys of the kingdom working and being alive in their proper order from the brethren down to local leaders. I know Something of sacred promises given to me of Glorious days ahead. These and many more heavenly wonders revealed to me in full faith and membership in the restored gospel. I do not wish to stand in judgment Denver. I do know however much of what Denver Proclaims runs contrary to the witnesses that God has given me. If you have a desire to know the truth and sustain the church as it is Presently constituted through a voice ( independent of the brethren but sustaining of) of great inspiration I would strongly encourage the direction of John Pontius. My love for you all, and a great hope and faith for all of us on that beautiful path that leads us to our Savior Jesus Christ.
Good Will said…
To quote Martin Luther:

"I didn't leave the Church; the Church left me."
Jared said…
Or maybe more approprialy said: you stopped allowing the gospel and church to work for you?
Bryan said…
I decided to use the apocalyptic commentary of Isaiah from Avraham Gileadi as I trudge through the Old Testament. I'm glad I did. It helps me a lot. By the way, I found this interesting bit from Avraham here, if I may put it here: http://www.independentamericanparty.org/2012/10/america-in-the-prophecy-of-isaiah-by-avraham-gileadi/
In his commentary, he does talk about the parallelisms and dualisms in Isaiah.
Good Will said…
Jared,

That was a quote from Martin Luther. Had you been a contemporary of his, would you have said "you stopped allowing the gospel and church to work for you"? ;o)
Karl said…
Denver Snuffer has certainly sent the first shot over the bow with his Ephraim talk. I remain officially neutral about what this all means. I recognize there are deep troubles in church administration, history, and doctrine as currently codified in the correlated, controlled, modern version we have been taught. I loved his Second Comforter book, which was doctrinal, and mainly quoted the scriptures and the teachings of Joseph Smith. How can you fault that? I love the idea that any common member can progress until their C&E is sure and they ultimately reenter the Lord's presence in mortality. So far I am right on board. However, that last book, PTHG, largely historical, is in my opinion, an absolute mess. I think Bro. Snuffer misses the mark on every main claim he makes (I think his interpretation is just plain wrong). Still, I would NOT have disciplined him over his writings (why are we so thin-skinned and intolerant in this church?) So, now we have the Ephraim talk, where Denver Snuffer is in effect, implying that He has it, and that the current Brethen, do not. The difficult thing here, is that no one has spoken with this much authority and voice since Joseph Smith. But, whether you like DS or not, make no mistake about it: this is leading to a confrontation of epic proportions. You may say DS does not desire a following, this is not about him, etc., but to me it seems like this is indeed leading to a showdown of Authority at some point. I must admit this is a lot more interesting than Sacrament Meeting. Will the amazing Bro. Snuffer pull up before he crosses the line and states it directly (that He is the Man, and the Brethren are in Apostacy)? Stay tuned--this drama is only going to get better. The Brethren haven't had anyone on their hands to deal with like this, since John Koyle and his Dream Mine. Be of good cheer, and may God bless us all.
Toni said…
If Tim is excommunicated, it would be the height of foolishness to ask to have our records removed. An action like that shows we are following a man and not our Lord.

Tim is supported via my prayers, but he will never supplant Christ in my heart and loyalty (and I am convinced he would never want to).
Tim Malone said…
Karl: Great addition to the dialog. Thanks for adding your thoughts. Here are two links that might be helpful to 1) those who haven't read PtHG and 2) to those unfamiliar with the Dream Mine / Relief Mine:

http://denversnuffer.blogspot.com/2013/10/understanding-how-to-read-pthg.html

http://www.reliefmine.com/ - or -

http://historytogo.utah.gov/utah_chapters/mining_and_railroads/dreammine.html
Tim Malone said…
Agreed, Toni, much agreed. Thank you.
Good Will said…
All kidding aside, I respect and acknowledge your testimony shared. Thank you. And I don't challenge or dismiss anything you wrote...except that last part.

If you had asked me on April 8, 2014 if the Church were "true", I would have said "Yes!"...with the understanding that "true" does not mean "perfect", "inerrant", etc. (any more than my true family is any of those things). I would have stated that the Church is a God-appointed vehicle to do some of His work (namely, flood the world with the Book of Mormon, provide essential, basic ordinances, build temples, etc.).

Denver, myself and many others were willing to work within the system and abide by the current regime, showing due deference and respect to those in charge. We sought neither leadership nor following. The problem arose when those in charge assumed powers unto themselves which violated our agency, conscience and testimony.

Have you ever had a church leader pull you aside after Fast and Testimony Meeting and say:

"Stick to the testimony glove" (or, as they call it, "The five pillars of Mormonism")?

Have you ever been told that if you have not received a personal revelation from God regarding Thomas S. Monson that you are not worthy to hold a temple recommend or even qualified to be a member of the LDS Church? (Which is quite bizarre inasmuch as I never so much as quibbled about the man! Nor did I fail to "follow" anything he said! How much "obeisance" is required to be a "good Mormon" nowadays?)

Have you ever been accused of teaching "false doctrine" simply for teaching that we follow Jesus Christ, not a prophet or that one must receive the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost in order to be "born again"?

Have you ever been told by one of your church leaders -- one of the high priests who excommunicated you -- that he never experienced any "baptism of fire", neither had his father (a "two-timing" bishop!), neither had either of them ever had any interaction with Jesus (that they knew of)...and, yet, if it was good enough for them to be "saved" in the Church, by the ordinances thereof (so he said), then it ought to be good enough for anyone else and teaching anything other than that was clearly "false doctrine"?

Can you honestly say, with all your knowledge and experience, that leaders of the LDS Church have never "officially" taught false doctrine; openly disagreed with each other about subjects as basic as the nature and identity of God, leading millions astray; unfairly denied gospel blessings and ordinances to many; and committed whoredoms and abominations in the name of Deity, without revelation or doctrinal justification?

If not, then in what way is the LDS Church "true" and what justification would anyone have for "following the Brethren" and partaking of such folly? Could you not be more circumspect or humble regarding your "condemnation" of those who have simply acknowledged the truth?
sfort said…
I think the stepping stone for me was the book "Nephi's Isaiah". It used Isaiah's metaphor and dualism with Nephi's take as to the state of the Church today. It was enlightening and well understood. Gileadi means well but he puts me to sleep. Denver's book was the catalyst and was worth the short read.
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