Latter-day Commentary

Hi there, I was given the link to your blog this ...

2012-05-30T00:29:11.633-07:00

Hi there,

I was given the link to your blog this evening by a friend of mine. He runs an LDS chat room and I do as well. Someone came in to talk about Joseph and Masonry last night. This prompted my friend to do some checking which brought him to your blog. Which, by the way, he finds very informative.

I have learned a lot here. Thank you for that and thanks to those who commented.

I have been a member of the church for about 35 years and never regretted it for a minute. I first went to the temple in 1981 and as the years go by there is always something new to learn and understand. It is a beautiful thing.

I have several blogs here as well, including an LDS one that is relatively new. I love blogging and meeting others and learning new things. :)

I will be back often to check out the rest of your blog.

Have a great day and happy blogging

Take care

Beautiful.

2012-05-28T12:58:29.000-07:00

Beautiful.

My apologies if this shows up twice in your blog f...

2012-05-28T10:22:16.000-07:00

My apologies if this shows up twice in your blog feed. I published it yesterday on my blog hosted at Dotster before it crashed. I have now switched to WordPress.com, changed my DNS pointers and imported all my old blogs from my backup, but did not have a backup of this essay before Dotster broke the old blog.

I think this blog (particularly post #15) adds a l...

2012-05-27T08:26:08.520-07:00

I think this blog (particularly post #15) adds a lot of missing information to this discussion: http://uncleanspirits.blogspot.com

I think it's great how exposed and naked the m...

2012-05-16T07:35:16.994-07:00

I think it's great how exposed and naked the major religions are, now in a time of scientific advancement... Really puts a smile on my face to see the world move on from these dusty old, poor excuses for scripture. People are going to look back and giggle at those who believed the nonsense. That "faith" turned out to be nothing more than the faculty of the mind that allowed you believe things that you knew were untrue.

Sorry, I meant to address Bryan, not myself.

2012-05-13T11:19:26.000-07:00

Sorry, I meant to address Bryan, not myself.

Rob,
You have a lot of questions. They are goo...

2012-05-13T11:18:01.000-07:00

Rob,
You have a lot of questions. They are good questions. Though, I'd say slow down just a bit. =)

The most significant fruit "The Second Comforter" has yielded in most every reader I am aware of, is a very strong recommitment in trying to live the gospel. If you have this desire, read TSC, and worry about the other questions next.

"Receiving the Second Comforter" means receiving the literal presence of
Jesus Christ. This is something that is possible to receive in this life and we should be seeking it.

Since this affects your personal salvation more than the questions about the church, work on understanding/seeking this first. After you feel good about your own direction, then seek answers to the other questions.

Denver wrote a lot more books helping people understand the Book of Mormon before he addressed church history. Read his earlier books. He did not invent the issues with church history. This isn't a controversy HE created. All these issues have existed for sometime. Only recently has he attempted to address them and provide some answers for some people.

At the end of the day, even the ultimate message of Passing the Heavenly Gift is to seek Christ. Denver should not be controversial.

Why did the Lord want HIM to write it? Denver is a interesting example. He is a convert. A lawyer who likes Harley-Davidsons. He's divorced. He has no church authority and will be the first to tell you so. Why him? It's a good question. Personally, I am really glad the Lord chose him, because what the Lord is saying is ANYONE who does what's necessary can see HIM. If Elder Eyring wrote it, many people would enjoy the idea of meeting Christ, but would not believe that THEY could do it. Only a holy apostle could REALLY do it. Denver is a very flawed individual, but he has done what is necessary to see Him. If he can do it, anyone can, but more importantly- I CAN!!!

Read the book, and judge for yourself.

@Edwin
"If you have had any opportunity......

2012-05-13T10:46:11.000-07:00

@Edwin
"If you have had any opportunity....."

Beautifully stated.

[...] was recently introduced to the writings of D...

2012-05-12T15:25:33.000-07:00

[...] was recently introduced to the writings of Denver Snuffer, a man who claims to have received the Second Comforter and was asked by the Lord to write about it. That’s an amazing claim and obviously very [...]

Chris,

I have to admit, Denver Snuffer'...

2012-05-12T15:21:11.000-07:00

Chris,

I have to admit, Denver Snuffer's writings (at least from his blog) have had a positive impact on me. He definitely knows his stuff. Additionally, I actually plan on reading The Second Comforter; and looking back at my earlier post, I should have approached this more objectively.

My question is, what do you mean "fundamental doctrines" that the church is leaving behind? Do you mean receiving the second comforter? Why wouldn't further teachings, revelations, and clarifications of these other doctrines come from one of the 15 first? Wouldn't that defeat the purpose of a living prophet? Are those teachings withheld from us on purpose?

I'll admit, it bothers me when Mr. Snuffer *seems* to criticize the "church"; does he mean the people or the actual institution--or both? Whatever faults the church has would seem to be directly related to the lack of faith in the members. Joseph Smith has warned against criticizing the church, but at the same time Mr. Snuffer does not seem to raise himself up. Furthermore, Mr. Snuffer says the church is merely the means to an end--Christ. I can go with that. Where does a testimony of the church fit in to all of this?

I also question his position on saying whether prophets can lead us astray. Maybe the Lord withdraws His hand from faults they have made for a purpose. Who knows? Maybe in the stumbling we find our true faith and begin to rely on Christ. My point is, who's to say? The thing is that I can't think of any place in the scriptures where the prophet has actually misdirected the Lord's church--that's not to say that the prophets don't make mistakes, because there are certainly examples of those. Where does Amos 3:7 go into all of this?

Clearly, I have a lot of questions. I'd actually appreciate a reply from this (from anyone); I value all feedback greatly. I honestly feel like I have done well without Denver Snuffer's books and could continually do well without them. I owe all of that through feeling the Spirit in reading the Book of Mormon and seeking guidance from the Lord. That has initiated my true conversion. I do think Mr. Snuffer's books can have a hand in changing lives, but I really can't say that they're essential. I can't get my hands on one of Mr. Snuffer's books quite yet, but I at least want to do some due diligence before taking it to the Lord.

Please, don't get me wrong; I have nothing against Denver Snuffer. I'm trying to approach this as objectively as possible. I think he holds a lot of wisdom and understanding. I think he may even be a valuable instrument of the Lord. I'm just not sure how that really fits in with me, though...yees, I'm getting his book. Do his books answer these questions?

I have not read all the comments on here but I hav...

2012-05-11T03:45:08.000-07:00

I have not read all the comments on here but I have seen there is some discussion both in favor and against looking further into Denver Snuffer's books and message.

I read an experience from a comment about a man who claimed an audience with Christ and who now is an enemy to the church. It was recommended that because such people are known to exist that we should treat Denver's message lightly.

It should be clarified that Denver's message is that he was directly commissioned to write these books despite his personal desire not to. Denver's message has never been about himself but rather he uses scripture to shed light on many of the fundamental doctrines that we collectively in this church have decided to leave behind as we become more modern. These changes have become stumbling blocks to our journey of reconnection with Christ and they need to be removed.

1 Nephi 13:39 tells us to look forward to receiving "other books" that will come forth "by the power of the lamb from the gentiles..unto the convincing of the gentiles of (Nephi's) bretheren (or rather that the BOM is true). Read the whole verse and consider if Denver's books are not included in this category, if not than who's books WILL serve this function? What will they look like? What will they be about? From where will they come? What will they accomplish? How will you recognize them? These are relevant questions.

If Denver's calling fulfills this purpose what a horrible thing on our parts to dismiss it so carelessly. We are under MORE obligation to investigate given his claims despite the fact that many others have made similar claims and proven themselves to be apostates. If we accept the BOM as true than we should EXPECT that some kind of books are going to come from the gentiles directed TO the gentiles about clarification of plain and precious truths that have been lost.

For what it's worth I should throw in my voice that Denver's book, "The Second Comforter" completely reconverted me to the restored Gospel through nothing short of the power of God and his spirit. I do value his input and opinions because they have reconnected me to God after a decade of studying church history issues as well as a multitude of ideas from other traditions including Atheism. I had no faith and was not interested in any religions let alone our quirky messed up Mormon tradition but after being deeply offended by his claims I was consequently reconverted when I humbled myself enough to inquire of a God about them.

I'm still dumbfounded about history and I honestly don't know how to justify it intellectually but I have received a down pouring of spiritual answers and experiences which are to me undeniable witnesses of Jesus Christ. The work of Denver Snuffer has changed my life. I think everyone should read and discuss them no question. If they are wrong you should be able to demonstrate it through the use of scripture and gentle persuasion.

@dude
I don't know you. However after havi...

2012-05-10T13:12:26.000-07:00

@dude
I don't know you. However after having read all of Denver's books except "Removing the Condemnation" which I am half way done with. I ask that you give his writings another chance.
I empathize with your viewpoint of him being an apostate. Yet I not only don't agree with it but I feel confident that he is truly inspired.

2 Nephi 33:2 "But behold, there are many that harden their hearts against the Holy Spirit, that it hath no place in them; wherefore, they cast many things away which are written and esteem them as things of naught."

Revelation 19:10 "...for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."

Matthew 7:15-20 "15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a ccorrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them."

You said yourself that you enjoyed The Second Comforter. I not only enjoyed it but felt the spirit confirm truths to me in that book that have been built on in each subsequent book, including Passing the Heavenly Gift. However without the basis from his other books PTHG could seem wrong headed, and negative.

If you have had any opportunity at all to share the Book of Mormon with many people you have seen how many will consider it a thing of naught over something small that they have read, heard, seen or felt. Most assuredly you have felt remorse in how they do this, because you realize that they are throwing away eternity in refusing to just read it and judge it in its whole. The same is true anytime anyone refuses any aspect of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. They damn themselves and turn down eternity with out realizing it.
Don't be like them. If you felt The Second Comforter was inspired then I promise you that you will see how the rest of his books have equally been inspired by reading ALL of them.
Once reading ALL of them, you will see how PTHG is really an individual call to repentance.

I think anyone who reads these posts should rememb...

2012-05-07T18:37:30.757-07:00

I think anyone who reads these posts should remember that LDS members have the right to believe in the Book of Abraham if they choose to do so. I do not know why people like to spend there time trying to discredit our beliefs. Most Mormons will respect you and your beliefs even though we might disagree.
Anyone wanting a scholarly view on the subject should read the writings of Hugh Nibley at:

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/

Search for: "the book of abraham"

May God Bless You!

I believe reading in a comment on one of the other...

2012-05-07T12:35:13.000-07:00

I believe reading in a comment on one of the other posts that you have the Zion Symposium audio CD. Towards the end (part way through track 13 & into track 14) he talks about Satan being loosed at the end of the millennium; listen to that & see if you don't think it sounds like he's talking about the 9th parable.

After having read Passing the Heavenly Gift, and t...

2012-05-07T03:01:17.000-07:00

After having read Passing the Heavenly Gift, and throwing it in the trash bin afterward, my feeling toward Denver Snuffer is symbolized precisely by my action. I really enjoyed the Second Comforter book. But Denver Snuffer in that book preached to not find fault with the Lord's anointed. In Passing the Heavenly Gift, he went against his own counsel, even to the point of suggesting that keys have been lost, and that the Church is in an apostate, cursed state. His other writings in his other books only obscure the fact that Denver himself is an apostate in sheeps clothing that seeks to create internal apostasy in the Church without people actually leaving the Church. That seems to be the new thing in vogue with apostates. Why leave the Church when you can create a secret combination from within of dissent?

I've enjoyed reading Ten Parables multi...

2012-05-06T13:55:11.000-07:00

I've enjoyed reading Ten Parables multiple times.

I'd thought of #2 (Wise Men) more in terms of historic Christianity from Christ's original apostles, through the apostasy & dark ages, to the renaissance and then the restoration. I suppose it could be describing the General Authorities, but I hadn't ever thought of it that way.

#3 (Triangularity) is awesome and maps onto the history of the restoration perfectly.

#8 (Brakhill's Greatest Citizen) is one of my favorites. I actually looked on a map of Wyoming to see if Brakhill was a real place or not. :) The interpretation of Ira Wilkas's building as City Creek doesn't seem like a good fit to me. (Although, what do I know?) I read it more as the difference between those who have their earthly reward now vs laying up treasure in heaven, as the fact that the written word endures and can touch generations yet unborn, as compared to the fleeting nature of purely temporal business success.

I agree #10 (The Missing Virtue) is obviously biographical. Of all the parables reflecting on it has caused me to change my personal behavior the most. Which is sad, because if I had truly internalized King Benjamin's final sermon I wouldn't have needed to repent.

I read “The Competition” this morning to Carol. Sh...

2012-05-06T02:54:28.000-07:00

I read “The Competition” this morning to Carol. She immediately pointed out some flaws. If the parable is supposed to be an analogy for the plan of salvation, the plan of happiness or whatever it is we call it these days, then it was missing a few elements.

For example, although the narrator told us the purpose of the plan was two-fold: to improve the health and vigor of the citizens as well as to test their loyalty, the king did NOT share the second purpose of the plan with his citizens, at least not in a direct quote in the parable. I wonder if this was an inadvertent mistake. Perhaps we were supposed to assume the king made it clear upfront.

If he didn’t announce it to all, then the complaint of some of the citizens at the end may have been legitimate. Had they known the competition was really designed to test their loyalty, they would have made a greater effort. Carol is of the opinion that the loyalty test was and still is very clear in real life. Perhaps that is because loyalty is a deep part of Carol’s personality.

Another difficulty she pointed out is that there are some elements that may not be doctrinally sound. For example, are those in the spirit world, both pre and post mortality, allowed to view the competition? That may be a matter of opinion or speculation. But, let’s not get hung up on that. This is just a parable, possibly first told as a bedtime story to one of his children.

The idea of having everyone together at the feast was new to Carol. I told her to wait until we got a little further along in the parable. The feast was not the end of the story. However, that brings up a point. If the purpose of this parable is to teach truth, as Denver writes in his preface, then what scripture or quote from a prophet can we turn to for verification of who attends the feast?

And is there a great feast at all? Is it the wedding feast at the return of the bridegroom that is being represented in this parable? Is this feast before or after the resurrection? I suspect it would be before. That brings up the question: at what point in time are we exalted? Is a resurrected being also an exalted being?

Just some thoughts that popped into my mind as we read this. Your thoughts?

Denver gave some hints for the first parable on hi...

2012-05-05T15:28:59.000-07:00

Denver gave some hints for the first parable on his blog a few months ago. There is a lot more in them than I have been able to ferret out:

http://denversnuffer.blogspot.com/2012/01/parables.html

Also, there's a couple more posts that contain hints about his purpose in writing, you can find them both here (if you haven't already read them):

http://denversnuffer.blogspot.com/search/label/parables

Rob,

All good advice and information. Thank...

2012-05-04T09:38:59.000-07:00

Rob,

All good advice and information. Thanks.

Rob,

All good advice. Thanks.

2012-05-04T09:36:42.000-07:00

Rob,

All good advice. Thanks.

Bryan,
I don't believe there is any disagr...

2012-05-04T09:31:39.000-07:00

Bryan,
I don't believe there is any disagreement about "The Second Comforter". If you have been on a mission, through the temple, and are trying to be like Christ, you have the foundation for "The Second Comforter".

The Second Comforter is not really anything new. If you read it and are expecting some grand new revelation, you'll be disappointed. It's really just a great compilation of BOM, D&C scriptures, and quotes from Joseph Smith. But the way it is put together is what is interesting. It is very motivating to improve your life and seek Christ.

THe only thing some people are troubled about, is the idea that a man who claims to have seen Christ is telling people how they can do it themselves. Many think the book is about Denver's experience. It's not. He doesn't even talk about it. The Second Comforter is is about YOU. And how YOU should seek Christ and what YOU need to do to make it happen.

There is nothing controversial about it. Unless you don't believe it's possible.

"Passing the Heavenly Gift" is an altogether different story. It is an examination of church history. If you are unfamiliar with the warts of church history, I wouldn't read it. There would be no point to.

"Come Let Us Adore Him" is all about Christ. Great book. Up there with Jesus the Christ.

"Beloved Enos" is about the fullness of the gospel. Another great book. Who'd think one could write a whole book about 2.5 pages of the BOM?

"Nephi's Isaiah" is a great book about the Isaiah chapters in the BOM. I never really understood Isaiah in the BOM until i read it.

Anyway. whether you read his book or not, I hope you find whatever you need.

Rob,

I wasn't clear in what I was tryin...

2012-05-04T08:59:08.000-07:00

Rob,

I wasn't clear in what I was trying to say. I just want to have a more solid base in the Gospel. For me, that is reading the scriptures and understanding basic doctrines before looking elsewhere; and if this book has caused so much disagreement and controversy in the church already, then I don't think it would be wise for me to pick it up just yet.

I hope that clears everything up.

" My conclusion is that it gives him cover. N...

2012-05-04T07:08:59.000-07:00

" My conclusion is that it gives him cover. No matter what he writes, he can always claim he is being misunderstood because you simply haven’t read his books, which makes everything clear."

They do. I've read all his books and his blog is clear to me.

"Regarding the Last Virtue, whatever other messages he may have put in there do not change the message he wrote regarding the church and its leadership."

In the Missing Virtue, he did not say anything about the church and it's leadership. He simply stated a fact. Other individuals did not stop to help. Do you doubt that that happens?

He has also shared many stories of individual members doing great things.

"But, I can see you are sympathetic to his criticisms of the church."

I am not really concerned with what he says about the church. What I enjoy is the light, knowledge, and understanding I get with the accompanying Spirit that has helped me improve my life by drawing nearer to Christ and allowing Him to overcome my weaknesses.

"I also had to chuckle as you pass judgement on me while telling me to back off the judgement of Snuffer."

I did not judge your intentions or your heart. I actually do not doubt that you are a very sincere believer who is worried about someone causing confusion. I am just trying to tell you that he is not. And there are many who have read his works and it has blessed them. If you are not interested, fine. I just don't think you have enough information to judge his heart, motive, or character.

It is strikingly odd to me how similar this discussion is to when I was on my mission. I would talk to people about the Book of Mormon and tell them how much it can enrich their lives. They would reply with things like, "I don't need any more Bible"; "Joseph Smith was inspired alright, inspired by the devil"; "I do not want to be confused about my believes by considering something new"; "Sounds like a false prophet to me." The only response is to try it. Read it. Don't believe me. See for yourself. God will help you find out if it's true or not. No matter how much I said the BOM has helped me, so many would not listen.

Likewise with "The Second Comforter". Some people respond with so much fear. It took 2 years for me to convince my brother to read it. (All the other members of my family read it and loved it.) Two weeks ago he used it to help teach his lesson in Elders Quorum.

Fred, you don't know me from your postman. But you will not find anyone who has read it, or any of Denver's books, leave the church because they read it. That's simply not what it's about. Everyone I know who has read it has been enriched. I'm not forcing you to read it or even challenging you to. There are a number of other books including the scriptures that will help you draw near to Christ. We don't have time to read everything. I've simply saying that it was worthwhile for me.

I would also hope that you refrain from making judgments without more information. I really hope you don't persuade others not to read it with the incomplete knowledge you have. Then you are impeding other people a marvelous experience.

"I will say I’m much more picky about what I ...

2012-05-04T06:47:56.000-07:00

"I will say I’m much more picky about what I take up; but just because something makes us desire to be better doesn’t mean that it’s a good thing. It’s about where it is leading us. From what I’ve read in the comments, I’m not even sure I would read his books-at a personal stance." Bryan

When did it happen that we became so afraid of being deceived? Joseph Smith searched for truth from many sources: academics, difference religions, even nonreligious. He searched for truth wherever it came from. Part of our progression is developing the ability to discern truth from error. Sure, you can avoid everything all together and never be deceived, but you will not progress either.

I've read all of Denver's books and all of his blog. He has one thesis, seek Christ. Everything else is supplementary to that.

If you are interested in that goal, there is no better book (apart from the BOM) to read than the Second Comforter. I've loaned my copy out to many people. More than I've ever loaned out for any other book. There is not one person who was offended by it, and all were uplifted. Now perhaps you are not ready for Passing the Heavenly Gift, if church history does not concern you then I wouldn't worry about it. But his other books are equally uplifting. "Come Let Us Adore Him" and "Beloved Enos" are great.

I wish you the best, in whatever way you see fit.

I'm going to end my posts on this topic. The t...

2012-05-03T12:09:04.000-07:00

I'm going to end my posts on this topic. The temptation to sink into contention is too great for my combative nature and my last post was dangerously close to the line. Use what I've written as you will to help you make your own decision regarding Snuffer.

Best wishes to all.

Latter-day Commentary

Hi there, I was given the link to your blog this ...

Beautiful.

My apologies if this shows up twice in your blog f...

I think this blog (particularly post #15) adds a l...

I think it's great how exposed and naked the m...

Sorry, I meant to address Bryan, not myself.

Rob, You have a lot of questions. They are goo...

@Edwin"If you have had any opportunity......

[...] was recently introduced to the writings of D...

Chris,I have to admit, Denver Snuffer'...

I have not read all the comments on here but I hav...

@dudeI don't know you. However after havi...

I think anyone who reads these posts should rememb...

I believe reading in a comment on one of the other...

After having read Passing the Heavenly Gift, and t...

I've enjoyed reading Ten Parables multi...

I read “The Competition” this morning to Carol. Sh...

Denver gave some hints for the first parable on hi...

Rob,All good advice and information. Thank...

Rob,All good advice. Thanks.

Bryan, I don't believe there is any disagr...

Rob,I wasn't clear in what I was tryin...

" My conclusion is that it gives him cover. N...

"I will say I’m much more picky about what I ...

I'm going to end my posts on this topic. The t...

Rob,
You have a lot of questions. They are goo...

@Edwin
"If you have had any opportunity......

Chris,

I have to admit, Denver Snuffer'...

@dude
I don't know you. However after havi...

Rob,

All good advice and information. Thank...

Rob,

All good advice. Thanks.

Bryan,
I don't believe there is any disagr...

Rob,

I wasn't clear in what I was tryin...